Transparent amp wanted - no I don't mean see through.

[chris_b]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='27967' date='Jul 6 2007, 04:24 PM'][b]You[/b] think it sounds great, but not everyone goes for the same sound. This is why we don't all use the same amp. Its not really that hard to get your head round...[/quote]
Sorry, but I don't get your point. It's obvious that everyone goes for "their" sound and uses "their" equipment to do that.

The question I was asking is why is transparent such an important objective these days and why do so many people think transparent sounds "better"?

[ped]

The same reason people say tubes sound better, or transistors sound better - preference!

[ped]

I like transparent tube amps (!)

[kjb]

Hi

I use a Sei 6 string bass which has an Aguilar OBP3 preamp fitted to it.

After 20 years of playing, using virtually every amp possible, I've come to the conclusion that the sound of my bass sounds fantastic just amplified, without being messed about with.

Most amps are 'voiced', so even when set flat, the sound they produce isn't.

If an amp has only a 3 band EQ section, then cutting the mids is affecting quite a chunk of your sound, and the resulting sound from your speakers is nothing like the true character of your bass.

I played through a crappy, abused Behringer amp and cab on Tuesday night at a rehearsal studio, plugged into the input it sounded awful, however plugged into the effects return input, thereby avoiding the preamp it sounded great, I just used the pre on my bass to vary my tones.

This is something that I've been doing for sometime, try it next time you use an unfamiliar amp.

Look at Mark Kings amps, you'll see graphic eq sliders flying everywhere, the mids are cut by a massive amount, pretty much everyone agrees that his live sound is crap. It shouldn't be though with the gear that he uses, the Status Kingbass has a fantastic preamp fitted to it, doesn't he like the sound of it ?, because he's not hearing the Kingbass real sound with the amps set like they are.

These are obviously just my opinions, everyone is different.

I'm off to the Gallery tomorrow, they have all three amps that I'm interested in, the Epi 502, and AI focus and Clarus, so I'll be able to try each one, I'm taking my bass with me.

Edited July 6, 2007 by kjb

[kjb]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='27742' date='Jul 6 2007, 08:12 AM']I think your best bet is the AI Focus. MarkBass heads definitely have some preshape built-in and Epifani heads are SO expensive! I know a bassist in London who plays a Wal fretless through one with a UL112, and before the UL112 arrived he borrowed one of my Acmes - I got to try out both and was very impressed.

Personally I remain sceptical about the Focus having the power it claims but I'm sure it has more than enough power to push a UL310 to its limits.

Alex[/quote]


From reading other threads here and on Talkbass you seem to be a bit of an expert on this sort of thing.

How do you think the AI focus compares to your Avalon U5, and to Epi heads.

Cheers

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='27742' date='Jul 6 2007, 08:12 AM']Personally I remain sceptical about the Focus having the power it claims but I'm sure it has more than enough power to push a UL310 to its limits.[/quote]

My Focus just keeps going and going and going.... despite all I've thrown at it (which is a hell of a lot, believe me), it has never once gasped for breath...

[Dragonlord]

Most are good suggestions (except aguilar! at least not the DB750 and AG500). I'd probably mainly look at the AI and EA stuff for transparent. However, I can't recommend buying at the Gallery - it's great that there's a store that carries these brands in London, but the stuff there is waaaay overpriced. I mean easily up to +50% with a quick look, which at 1000 GBP for example is a LOT of money. I would recommend ordering from Germany or Italy instead.

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='chris_b' post='27992' date='Jul 6 2007, 05:04 PM']Sorry, but I don't get your point. It's obvious that everyone goes for "their" sound and uses "their" equipment to do that.

The question I was asking is why is transparent such an important objective these days and why do so many people think transparent sounds "better"?[/quote]
Er... because they can? As Ped said, personal preference.

[kjb]

[quote name='Dragonlord' post='28095' date='Jul 6 2007, 09:14 PM']Most are good suggestions (except aguilar! at least not the DB750 and AG500). I'd probably mainly look at the AI and EA stuff for transparent. However, I can't recommend buying at the Gallery - it's great that there's a store that carries these brands in London, but the stuff there is waaaay overpriced. I mean easily up to +50% with a quick look, which at 1000 GBP for example is a LOT of money. I would recommend ordering from Germany or Italy instead.[/quote]

The problem with ordering from abroad was highlighted by this thread here [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=889"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=889[/url]

If anything goes wrong with whatever I buy, I just take it back to the Gallery.

And the price that's advertised isn't necessarily the price that you pay.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='kjb' post='28115' date='Jul 6 2007, 10:25 PM']The problem with ordering from abroad was highlighted by this thread here [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=889"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=889[/url]

If anything goes wrong with whatever I buy, I just take it back to the Gallery.

And the price that's advertised isn't necessarily the price that you pay.[/quote]

I bought my Focus from Bob Gollihur ([url="http://www.urbbob.com"]www.urbbob.com[/url]). I saved myself an absolute fortune (literally hundreds and hundreds of quid - UK retailers were taking the p***, frankly).

The support from AI is great. I don't regret buying from overseas.

[kjb]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='28123' date='Jul 6 2007, 10:32 PM']I bought my Focus from Bob Gollihur ([url="http://www.urbbob.com"]www.urbbob.com[/url]). I saved myself an absolute fortune (literally hundreds and hundreds of quid - UK retailers were taking the p***, frankly).

The support from AI is great. I don't regret buying from overseas.[/quote]


Yeah, I did think about ordering from abroad, but there's always the problem if anything does go wrong, of shipping it back etc.

And I have been given a good price by Alex, so by the time you add on shipping and the dreaded taxes I wouldn't really be much better off.

Thanks for the link though.

[Dragonlord]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='28123' date='Jul 7 2007, 12:32 AM']I bought my Focus from Bob Gollihur ([url="http://www.urbbob.com"]www.urbbob.com[/url]). I saved myself an absolute fortune (literally hundreds and hundreds of quid - UK retailers were taking the p***, frankly).

The support from AI is great. I don't regret buying from overseas.[/quote]
+1, I've never had a problem and I've bought LOTS of stuff from abroad. And, at that price difference, I'd rather risk it a little, after all it's only gonna happen once every several purchases. I don't know how flexible they are on the prices at the Gallery, anyway it sure isn't good advertising for them to post prices that are +50% of other european stores. Maybe they list them so high so that, when they cut you say 10% you think you're getting a good deal, when you're still getting them much more expensive than you could. BTW, wood and tronics is a small store, when you order from bigger german stores they usually pick it up for free from your home if something's wrong in the first 30 days.

Edited July 6, 2007 by Dragonlord

[Dood]

[quote name='kjb' post='27600' date='Jul 5 2007, 07:55 PM']I'm considering going with a seperate pre/power amp, probably an Avalon UL5 with a [b]powersoft power amp.[/b]
However my prefered option is to just buy as transparent sounding head as possible, my options here are an Epifani UL502, or an Acoustic image either a Clarus or a focus.

I use an Epifani UL310 series 2 cab.

The idea is to just amplify my bass, I have a very versatile pre fitted to my bass, and I think that it's very easy to completely ruin your sound (without realising it), by over enthusiastic tone knob tweaking.

Anyway, has anyone any experience of the above gear.

I only play jazz and funk, so I don't need masses of power.[/quote]

Hey KJB, I'm going to put a vote in for your modular approach. We pretty much know that most quality power amps (like the one you mentioned) are 'transparent'. I like having the ability to chop and change as I like, so being able to split the pre from the poweramp is a bonus.

I'm having great fun with this signal path at the moment:-

EBS Multicomp compressor > Alesis digital EQ (half rack) > Powersoft power amp.

No preamp at all! I use the EQ to 'EQ for the room' and then boost top and bottom for different styles on the bass. That is as transparent as I am likely to get to be honest.

Oh.. and I have recently relearnt that transparent is good. HiFi is good. Flat Response actually, for me isn't. 3 very different descriptions of tone!


I'm still using the Trace Elliot V-Type preamp for particular sounds. Awesome for a bit of recording bite. The signal path above is really tastey though!

[MoJ]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='27882' date='Jul 6 2007, 12:46 PM']don't be silly that's not a transparent amp! it's a transparent speaker cab.[/quote]

No, but its as close as you'll get for the intended pun. Considering I'd only been looking at the Ampeg site a couple of days previous to this thread as I thought it was quite coincidential.
apparently its been made for the Beastie Boys...
Andy

[crez5150]

[quote name='Dragonlord' post='28129' date='Jul 6 2007, 10:42 PM']+1, I've never had a problem and I've bought LOTS of stuff from abroad. And, at that price difference, I'd rather risk it a little, after all it's only gonna happen once every several purchases. I don't know how flexible they are on the prices at the Gallery, anyway it sure isn't good advertising for them to post prices that are +50% of other european stores. Maybe they list them so high so that, when they cut you say 10% you think you're getting a good deal, when you're still getting them much more expensive than you could. BTW, wood and tronics is a small store, when you order from bigger german stores they usually pick it up for free from your home if something's wrong in the first 30 days.[/quote]

No wonder the industry in this country is on its knees......

[MoJ]

[quote name='crez5150' post='28156' date='Jul 7 2007, 12:12 AM']No wonder the industry in this country is on its knees......[/quote]

Ive been reading this thread wondering thje same thing.
Ive worked in two music shops now and neither will match prices on Thomann. I even remeber reading an article in a trade magazine about this very thing, and in mentioned Thomann and how the music trade is up in arms about them. Its a whole can-o-worms but basically you pay for (hopefully) a service which you wont get online or buying over the internet abroad for starters.
In my current shop, we even have a few people who want us to repair things bought from places like Thomann, to which our response is not unlike you would expect if you'd bought from another shop. Take it back to them! Why should we have to deal with some thing that is not our problem, at our expense?
Sorry, its late and I dont thin Ive made the point I meant to but it would be nice to see people support local industries, otherwise you wont have anywhere to go try out your guitars or amps and then buy online....
Andy

[wateroftyne]

Just to pick up on a couple of points...

[quote]Yeah, I did think about ordering from abroad, but there's always the problem if anything does go wrong, of shipping it back etc.[/quote]

To be honest, if anything goes wrong to the point where it needs to be shipped back, it makes no difference to me if it has to be shipped to London or Chicago. I'd still have to use my back-up amp. Truth is, the AI amps are modular so chances are Rick at AI could diagnose the problem and ship out a replacement part.

He's already talked me through resolving a problem with a switch via email.

[quote]It would be nice to see people support local industries...[/quote]

I will as soon as they stop charging us through the nose...! I bought my amp from a amall US retailer and paid the full import charges. Despite this, it was still far, far less than if I'd bought it from the UK distributor, who presumably gets them at trade cost.

[MoJ]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='28189' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:09 AM']I will as soon as they stop charging us through the nose...! I bought my amp from a amall US retailer and paid the full import charges. Despite this, it was still far, far less than if I'd bought it from the UK distributor, who presumably gets them at trade cost.[/quote]

I assume you know what the trade costs are for UK dealers and elsewhere in the world? I must admit I only have access to UK trade, so in which case I ask, how do you know that we in the UK aren't being bled dry? Im not accusing manufacturers, but when you add, if the product is not made in the UK, the cost of buying from a distributor based in the UK as well as VAT and export/import duty and to things we are getting screwed over by somebodyelse. Any retailer has costs they have to cover and factor into the price of selling anything, as you will no doubt know. I'd still like to get paid at the end of the day, as Im sure you do as well.
The guitar shop I work for has been my local one since I started playing, and Id also like to see them grow as a business so as then they can maybe get in more products.

Sorry, not trying to pick a fight here but when you're amp goes wrong, dont expect us to be repairing it or footing the carriage charges for shipping it back to wherever it comes from to get fixed.

Andy

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='MoJ' post='28196' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:46 AM']I assume you know what the trade costs are for UK dealers and elsewhere in the world?[/quote]

No I don't, but consider this:

If the UK dealer did as I did, and bought it from a US dealer, paying full import tax etc., at the price they were charging they could still have sold it for around £400 profit.

No matter how charitable and pro-UK trade I'm feeling, I'm not falling for that.

[MoJ]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='28198' date='Jul 7 2007, 09:01 AM']No I don't, but consider this:

If the UK dealer did as I did, and bought it from a US dealer, paying full import tax etc., at the price they were charging they could still have sold it for around £400 profit.

No matter how charitable and pro-UK trade I'm feeling, I'm not falling for that.[/quote]

Not that I know for certain, but Im pretty sure there are rules/laws about going behind the backs of the UK main/sole distributors backs.

Andy

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='MoJ' post='28199' date='Jul 7 2007, 09:08 AM']Not that I know for certain, but Im pretty sure there are rules/laws about going behind the backs of the UK main/sole distributors backs.

Andy[/quote]

In that case, it's up to the UK distributors to put pressure on the manufacturer.

I have no idea what the cause is, I'm just saying I'm not dishing out £400 when I don't have to. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[obbm]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='28198' date='Jul 7 2007, 09:01 AM']No I don't, but consider this:

If the UK dealer did as I did, and bought it from a US dealer, paying full import tax etc., at the price they were charging they could still have sold it for around £400 profit.

No matter how charitable and pro-UK trade I'm feeling, I'm not falling for that.[/quote]

This is all very nice in theory but international trade and commerce doen't work like that.

Reagardless of wehether you are buying a guitar, an amp, a car or a TV, manufacturers appoint country or regional distributors and dealers to handle the business, set up distribution chains to handle their products because it is impracticable to deal with every customer, or even dealer, directly.

Distributors are required to provide sales forecasting, stock purchasing, warehousing, sometimes set-up, local modifications and QA, distribution, warranty support, marketing, advertising. He also requires them to forecast sales trends are so the factory can manufacture the right products. For example a manufacturer, based in say California, has no idea what is going on in the UK market. He is reliant on the eyes and ears of his distributor to provide that information.


They are required to buy and pay for the stock that they are going to onward sell to their dealers. This requires premises, people and money and, money costs money.

Finally the dealer, your local music store has to make a living.

That's the way it works and no amount of bitching about it will change things.

The only reason you know about price differentials is because of the internet. For as long as I can remember, over 30 years, there has always been a significant price difference between the USA and the UK. It is not a new phenomenon. If you don't like it then complain to the manufacturers directly. It is they who set-up the networks and invoke rulkes about cross-border trading. Don't take it out on the local dealer.

I'm with MoJ. If you buy cheaply from abroad, don't expect the local store to fix it for free. It's your problem.

[/rant]

[wateroftyne]

I wouldn't dream of asking a local store to fix it for free. Why would I do that?

This is my closing point 'cos I'm off out the door.

I'm not talking about a £50 or £100 premium on the US price. I would be tempted to pay that. It's reasonable.

£400, though? Nah.

[obbm]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='28254' date='Jul 7 2007, 11:24 AM']I'm not talking about a £50 or £100 premium on the US price. I would be tempted to pay that. It's reasonable.

£400, though? Nah.[/quote]

My comments were regarding distrbution of US products generally. Having had a trawl through AI Focus prices in the US, Europe and the UK I must agree that in this case the UK distributor is without doubt taking the p*$$. Why not complain to AI directly.

[bass_ferret]

I've said it before and i'm frankly getting a bit fed up with explaining basic economics to people. Everything is expensive in the UK because everything is expensive, and there is no special dispensation for music retailers. Property in the UK is expensive - whether its a high street shop or a distributers warehouse. Taxes are expensive. Employment costs (not just wages) are expensive. Fuel is expensive. All of this has to be paid for in the retail price.