5 String - not flavour of the month?

[chris_b]

I don't have to justify 5 string basses. Like it or not they are an accepted part of the bassists tool box and have been for many, many years. There is no down side.

I don't understand why some 4 string players have such a problem with this.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1428160050' post='2738656']
There is no down side.

[/quote]

How about increasing inaudibility the lower you go in pitch?

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1428158588' post='2738626']
Again, I'd advise any young bass player: [b]stick to 4 strings[/b]. Set up a nice full sound and go [b]up[/b] the octaves and play melodies and contrast that with lower notes from the E upwards. Leave the 5 stringers somewhere in the murk of their own B strings.
[/quote]

All of that is still available on a five string! Myself, I try to be sparing with the lower notes, but I enjoy the alternative timbre of the B string for certain things (with flatwounds it sounds a little like the E on a short-scale) and it does make some fingerings a little easier.
I don't enjoy hearing players who overuse the lowest notes, but to blame that on them playing 5-string is akin to having a go at your keyboard player because they showed up with a 76 note keyboard instead of a 61.
Regarding memorable lines below low-E, how about Roy Estrada on Captain Beefheart's [i]I'm Gonna Booglarize You Baby? [/i]It's dark and murky, but it works for that reason. Or Michael Henderson on some of the 70s electric Miles Davis material?
Of course, both of those were on detuned four-string, but I'd suggest someone like Les Claypool for having some distinctive and memorable lines with low notes in them. He's not my cup of tea, but Primus undoubtedly had some prominent and melodic basslines.

[Iain]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1428160050' post='2738656']I don't understand why some 4 string players have such a problem with this.[/quote]

Exactly - I'd love a top quality 4 as well as 5 but, for now, I'm limited to the 5 being where the £s got spent. It can do everything a 4 can plus has a number of tricks beyond the reach of a 4 - not just below the 5th fret on the B-String.

As others have pointed out (maybe Spoonbung needs to read the preceding posts?) the ability to work in different parts of the neck is one of the most important features of a 5 and the criticism of inventiveness and tonality of a 5-string are just plain odd. The E-G on my Dingwall sound great, tighter and clearer than many 4s. The B is tonally in keeping with the progression of string thickness - but not too pronounced due to the added scale-length.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1428160283' post='2738659']
I don't enjoy hearing players who overuse the lowest notes, but to blame that on them playing 5-string is akin to having a go at your keyboard player because they showed up with a 76 note keyboard instead of a 61.
[/quote]

Good point - but why in that case why play a 5 string (given all the disadvantages I mentioned above?)

Edited April 4, 2015 by Spoombung

[Spoombung]

[quote name='Iain' timestamp='1428160584' post='2738664']
Exactly - I'd love a top quality 4 as well as 5 but, for now, I'm limited to the 5 being where the £s got spent. It can do everything a 4 can plus has a number of tricks beyond the reach of a 4 - not just below the 5th fret on the B-String.

As others have pointed out (maybe Spoonbung needs to read the preceding posts?) the ability to work in different parts of the neck is one of the most important features of a 5 and the criticism of inventiveness and tonality of a 5-string are just plain odd. The E-G on my Dingwall sound great, tighter and clearer than many 4s. The B is tonally in keeping with the progression of string thickness - but not too pronounced due to the added scale-length.
[/quote]

Okay, I should make this a bit clearer then -[i] it's not specifically 5 string basses I object to[/i]. It's bass lines played below the E because they

a) contribute to the widespread cult of anonymous and boring bass playing
are therefore pointless
C) and largely inaudible

[JTUK]

Definitive Album by Chaka Khan, Naughty, virtually every track a 5...which considering AJ did most of the work, iirc, is not surprising
and his lines definitely do not lack melody.
Anything by Phil Collins ...like Sussudio, And you can't say Stevie Wonder doesn't write with a 5 str as his MD is Nathan Watts
and you don't often see him without a 5.. and seeing that SW default key seems to be Eb.
But hey, if you don't know this stuff, you don't know.

Edited April 4, 2015 by JTUK

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1428160050' post='2738655']
C'mon then, post an example and we'll have a look.
[/quote]

[media]http://youtu.be/5NV6Rdv1a3I[/media]

I rest my case.

[Iain]

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1428160918' post='2738671']
C) and largely inaudible
[/quote]

You might want to go get your hearing checked out by a professional if you can't hear bass below the low E in standard bass tuning. Discounting the use of it because of your own short comings is a little authoritarian and mean spirited while choosing to dish out advice based on it is plain foolish.

Debate around the purely auditory aspects of low bass is also missing the experience of live music - feeling the bass really move you is part of what gets people out and about in pubs and clubs enjoying everything from rock to dance.

[Bobthedog]

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1428160644' post='2738667']
Good point - but why in that case why play a 5 string (given all the disadvantages I mentioned above?)
[/quote]

I don't know the answer to this, however, Doug Wimbish, Divinity Rox, Steve Lawson and Yolanda Charles do not seem to have hampered their careers by using more than 4 strings.

As a newbie, I do not see the disadvantage to be honest. I am learning one specific tune for my next grade exam which is at 155bpm, mostly around the 5-8th frets of the E and A string but with some 8th notes on frets 1,2 and 3 of the E,A and D. As a learner it is a lot easier for my slow fingers to move those notes along and down one to the middle of the neck. Yes the strings are narrower at 17.5 mm compared to the 19mm of my Fenders, but this is not a major problem and practice is sorting that out.

I do agree to some extent about the ultra low notes, but to blame a five string for dull bass lines seems a little harsh. I see them as an improvement a bit like the movement from wooden to graphite tennis rackets, no more difficult to play, but with a much bigger sweet spot for the right notes.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Bobthedog

[spectoremg]

Point of order: Sledgehammer was played on a 4-string Stingray fretless using an octave pedal and can't count as a 5-string bassline, as good as it is.
5-strings sound great when recorded (Nathan East always sounds great; Bad and Gail Ann Dorsey's Corporate World are stand outs) but suffer from the same problems electric bass has in a live environment, and it seems to get worse the nearer the B end. Synth bass sounds much better down there.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='Iain' timestamp='1428164973' post='2738727']


You might want to go get your hearing checked out by a professional if you can't hear bass below the low E in standard bass tuning.


[/quote]

Well, I wonder if YOU can indentify the notes? I did a blindfold test at a bassbash a couple of years ago. I played a C then a Csharp and asked people to identify whether I'd moved up a tone or a semitone. Only half the people got the correct answer. The ability to hear notes that low is difficult unless you include harmonic resonance - something the bass guitar does not have.

I'm making very straightforward points. You don't need to accuse me of deafness or throw other insults at me.

[louisthebass]

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1428158966' post='2738632']
Hahaha! I'm just trying to rescue all you 5 stringers. It appears I'm too late.
[/quote]

Too late where I'm concerned, respect your opinion and the 4 string still does have a place in music, but have you ever tried a 35" scale 5 string? Both my Overwater Jazz and my Yammy TRB5 are 35" and all the notes on the low B string pop out .

[Beer of the Bass]

From painful experience, if the guitarist is playing a D chord and I accidentally hit a low C sharp, I can definitely hear the discord!

[ambient]

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1428175918' post='2738895']
Well, I wonder if YOU can indentify the notes? I did a blindfold test at a bassbash a couple of years ago. I played a C then a Csharp and asked people to identify whether I'd moved up a tone or a semitone. Only half the people got the correct answer. The ability to hear notes that low is difficult unless you include harmonic resonance - something the bass guitar does not have.

I'm making very straightforward points. You don't need to accuse me of deafness or throw other insults at me.
[/quote]

I'd suspect that the reason they couldn't tell was more to do with poor ear training than the pitch of the note. We're talking a low C on a 5 string bass here, not some sub seismic note that humans can't hear

Half couldn't but equally half could.

I'm sat playing chromatically from low B to D and can clearly hear the difference between the notes.

[b]A 5 or a 6 string bass is not just about the extra low notes[/b], it's about having the ability to play in more than one position, i.e. I can comfortably fret a low E at fret 5 on my B string, and without moving my hand along the neck, I can play an E at the 9th fret on the G string, (I can actually play an A at the 9th fret on the C, but we're talking 5 string basses here).

Having a 5 or a 6 in reading gig is a great advantage, you can stay in one position, and play, instead of having to move about, possibly taking your eyes off the chart.

If what you're saying is right, then why do so many of the great players in the world play 5 string basses ?

What makes them wrong, and you right ?

Edited April 4, 2015 by ambient

[ambient]

Listen to some Anthony Jackson from this album - [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4v4Zu-msnQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4v4Zu-msnQ[/url]

Tell me that you honestly can't hear the notes that he play clearly. I did a lot of transcribing of his playing from this album last year, he loves the low Cs, C#s etc, they can clearly be heard.

Edited April 4, 2015 by ambient

[Spoombung]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1428177857' post='2738923']


What makes them wrong, and you right ?
[/quote]

Well nothing, obviously. It's an opinion.
I do hear lots of people on here complaining about the diminished role of the bass player, however. Do you think there might be a connection...encouraging players to go lower rather than going up the neck?

I honestly think a D played half way up the neck on an E string sounds a hell of a lot juicier than a D down on the B string. Yes, you can do it on a 5 string but given the option which direction will the player go? My bet is he'll go lower. So if there's more bassists playing down there might be more weight and fundemental but it'll be harder for the ear to pick out. You'll rely on the other instruments for it and you'll be reduced supplying 'feel' and 'width' and 'bulk! rather than harmonic content.

[ambient]

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1428179947' post='2738946']
Well nothing, obviously. It's an opinion.
I do hear lots of people on here complaining about the diminished role of the bass player, however. Do you think there might be a connection...encouraging players to go lower rather than going up the neck?

I honestly think a D played half way up the neck on an E string sounds a hell of a lot juicier than a D down on the B string. Yes, you can do it on a 5 string but given the option which direction will the player go? My bet is he'll go lower. So if there's more bassists playing down there might be more weight and fundemental but it'll be harder for the ear to pick out. You'll rely on the other instruments for it and you'll be reduced supplying 'feel' and 'width' and 'bulk! rather than harmonic content.
[/quote]

Do you think you're maybe a frustrated guitarist ?



If I'm playing conventional music, then the only time I ever use a low D or whatever, is if it was played on the record. If I'm replicating a keyboard part that has low D or Db (Chaka Khan for instance), then I use it.

Personally I play a 6, and like to play way up high, playing chords etc .

[Spoombung]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1428178246' post='2738927']
Listen to some Anthony Jackson from this album - [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4v4Zu-msnQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4v4Zu-msnQ[/url]

Tell me that you honestly can't hear the notes that he play clearly. I did a lot of transcribing of his playing from this album last year, he loves the low Cs, C#s etc, they can clearly be heard.
[/quote]

Yes I can hear them especially when isolated. But in combination with the other instruments their effect is negligible and they tend to disappear. That was evident at the Hiromi gig last year.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1428180261' post='2738951']


Do you think you're maybe a frustrated guitarist ?




[/quote]

Well the bass guitar is a guitar, so we're all guitarists here! I have no frustrations though.

I have no problem playing high up in a guitar range, if that's what you mean. I like a combination of high and low notes. Hahaha!

[40hz]

I don't like 5'ers. I have one that is very comfy to play, it's just the actual tonality of those low notes and how they physically sound (brand being irrelevant). I really dislike it and have never gelled with it.

Edited April 5, 2015 by 40hz

[discreet]

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1428158340' post='2738618']
The growth of the 5 string has coincided with a decline in memorable, melodic bass lines. That's more than a coincidence IMO.
[/quote]

You might have something there! My dalliance with 5-string basses depressed the crap out of me. The 'B' is just too different to the other strings... not necessarily in tension (or whatever you want to call it) but I found I had to address it differently, in a way I didn't like. It seemed temperamental somehow and demanded special treatment, which I ultimately resented.

A 5-string bass isn't just a 4-string with an extra string - it's a completely different instrument in my opinion. One I don't like. YMMV obviously.

The only advantage (for me) was the fact that you don't have to move around the fretboard so much. But I don't think having those few lower notes is worth the extra learning curve, the extra weight and the extra expense. I found it a relief to get back to four strings, frankly.

And another thing, the usual songs cited as great examples of 5-stringery leave me completely cold! There, I've said it. Thhpp!!

Edited April 4, 2015 by discreet

[RhysP]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1428188807' post='2739036']


You might have something there! My dalliance with 5-string basses depressed the crap out of me. The 'B' is just too different to the other strings... not necessarily in tension (or whatever you want to call it) but I found I had to address it differently, in a way I didn't like. It seemed temperamental somehow and demanded special treatment, which I ultimately resented.

A 5-string bass isn't just a 4-string with an extra string - it's a completely different instrument in my opinion. One I don't like. YMMV obviously.

The only advantage (for me) was the fact that you don't have to move around the fretboard so much. But I don't think having those few lower notes is worth the extra learning curve, the extra weight and the extra expense. I found it a relief to get back to four strings, frankly.

And another thing, the usual songs cited as great examples of 5-stringery leave me completely cold! There, I've said it. Thhpp!!
[/quote]

I have to say I agree with everything you say here.

[discreet]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1428188934' post='2739037']
I have to say I agree with everything you say here.
[/quote]

Well that makes a nice change!

[KingBollock]

I love my five string. I am thinking about putting the bottom four strings, from a five string set, in my beloved four string, just so I will start playing it again.