5 String - not flavour of the month?

[funkle]

I may be unpopular here for what I am saying, but....whilst I do play 5 string, quite happily, a lot of what Bob Ross wrote seems correct, at least in the technical aspects.

Doesn't stop me from enjoying playing it, but I do acknowledge the truth of many parts of what he says, including the need for good monitoring, careful technique, and the differences in timbre and spectral balance.

I suspect a lot of what might be offensive in the studio will go unheard live, given the limits of common bass speakers.

[visog]

Hmmm... I think people are just trying to be provocative on this thread.

A decent 5 has 5 usable strings across all frets. Although intonating a B-string in the dusty end is a bit of a challenge I grant you. Worth persevering. Don't dismiss 5's on the basis of bad basses.

A low C# sounds different to a C although it takes longer to perceive it because of the wavelength. (Not harmonic resonance!....)

And also, as alluded to in many posts, the ability to play two octaves of any scale within 5 frets is a real enabler to seeing how scales unfold on the fretboard which you simply don't get on a 4. (The next milestone for this, if you understand what I'm getting at is a 7 where the major scale manifests as a vertical row from the B upward in fourths or from the F upward in Fifths which is the basis of Lydian Chromatic approach.)

So I'd challenge the orthodoxy of the 4 from it's viola heritage and say a 5's the the way to go.

And as for memorable bass lines on a 5, their arrival coincides with the pre-eminence of Rap and Dance and the decline of guitar-driven rock into a minority music. The advent of 5 is not causal to so called unmemorable bass-lines, it's coincidental with unmemorable music.

Edited April 5, 2015 by visog

[discreet]

Just for a bit of balance, perhaps it's telling that the Marcus Miller V7 5-stringers are sold out at Thomann, wherease there are still 4-stringers available... and when I played Grand Wazoo's five-string Super J at his place a while back (fanned frets) I thought it worked well.

But I'm happier with a four. Possibly because I've been playing one for decades.
I will use a fiver when recording, if necessary. Live not so much.

If you're a jobbing player I have no doubt it's essential to have one in your arsenal...
...so at least you can say 'yes' when the question is inevitably asked...

Edited April 5, 2015 by discreet

[visog]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1428178246' post='2738927']
Listen to some Anthony Jackson from this album - [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4v4Zu-msnQ[/media]

Tell me that you honestly can't hear the notes that he play clearly. I did a lot of transcribing of his playing from this album last year, he loves the low Cs, C#s etc, they can clearly be heard.
[/quote]

Well I heard all the notes and enjoyed them immensely, a true artist on the bass guitar. (Granted, it's not exactly Justin Bieber but that's not the point of this post.)

Christ knows what AJ must practise to play this stuff....

[visog]

[quote name='visog' timestamp='1428252275' post='2739606']
Well I heard all the notes and enjoyed them immensely, a true artist on the bass guitar. (Granted, it's not exactly Justin Bieber but that's not the point of this post.)

Christ knows what AJ must practise to play this stuff....
[/quote]

And DC is killing as always... My favourite AJ is also Steve Khan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_FBGKb5Q-k

Oh and he makes unbelievable use of a the B string.

[Krysbass]

[quote name='darkandrew' timestamp='1428248403' post='2739559']
The aforementioned Euro 5LX also has an extended 35" scale which helps tighten up the "b" string. It really is one of the most playable basses I've ever owned.
[/quote]

The Spector ReBop 5-string I just bought (mentioned in my earlier post on this thread) is also a 35" scale - the B string has good tension, an impressive growl in the tone and good sustain. Having been a 4-string devotee for the past 30+ years, it's the only 5-string I've ever played but I think this bass has a lot to do with how I'm enjoying making the transition to 5-string.

Picking up on some of the earlier comments about good 5-string songs - I must confess to playing along to some undemanding Pink Floyd stuff such as "The Wall", "Run Like Hell", "Sorrow" and "Keep Talking" - just enjoying hearing those low notes without having to down-tune. Simple pleasures!

[louisthebass]

Agree with Visog's comments earlier, although I still think the 4 has a place in music. Some people are happier on a 4 for various reasons - to each their own.

Just to expand on Visog's last paragraph (for anyone who may not be aware), the 5 became a necessity in the mid 1980's as synth bass was featuring on a lot of pop / funk / soul music at that time. Bassists with 4 string basses (for the most part) were either having to invest in synth bass keyboards and adapt to get below low E, or risk not working.

[barneyg42]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1428230284' post='2739282']


You're right, they will appear - especially if you start them yourself. But there is no 'right' answer, as you say. It's a great opportunity to wind up 5-string players though, they're usually a bit touchy and defensive about their choice. *Runs away*
[/quote]
I have two basses, both Status Fives! You don't wind me up, I don't give a toss what you think! Do I look bovvered!!'




See you outside and I'll give you a good pasting!!

😉😉

[deepbass5]

Those of us who started in the 70's and had to cover pop material through the 80's into the 90's know that sooner or later we needed a 5
I bought a Boss OC2 then a yamaha DX7 then finally a 5 string bass. Digital recording and synth bass played on keys woke us up. adapt or die.
Here is one example that i remember
https://youtu.be/GNbUQ-76fOc

[largo]

I don't get it. What can you do on a 4 string that you can't on a 5?

[kusee pee]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1428390007' post='2740719']
I don't get it. What can you do on a 4 string that you can't on a 5?
[/quote]

Agreed, I'm confused. I see a five as having all the benefits of a four but with some advantages. I look forward to hearing the benefits of not having the fifth string.

[JTUK]

Well, a 4 will force a few players to play a certain way... which is no bad thing.

But I'm a converted 5-er and I'd never go back.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='Bobthedog' timestamp='1427911822' post='2735837']
Perhaps it is just because I have just bought one, but am I seeing more 5s for sale than usual at the moment?

Are they really that hard to switch too? I am slowly getting into mine and yes it tough due to string spacing but it does not seem too hard.

I have read some technical bumph about why studios do not like the B string, but why are there so many for sale? Thoughts anyone (humorous ones too are acceptable)?
[/quote]

Reverting to the OP, I am sure it is not uncommon for a 4-string player to buy a 5-er and then not get on with it. The number for sale in the BC market place could be a reflection of this, or of their continuing popularity. You do see quite a few people saying 'great bass but I've decided to stick to 4 strings'. As has been mentioned, there are various factors that can make the 5-er that bit harder, chiefly neck width and continually going for the wrong string.

I have to admit I have only gigged my 5-er once in the 18 months that I've owned it, and that was because I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it. It went OK except on the songs where I had to take lead vocal, and then there just seemed to be too much to compute! Nothing that can't be overcome with practice though.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1428390007' post='2740719']
I don't get it. What can you do on a 4 string that you can't on a 5?
[/quote]

Buy cheaper strings (and typically from a wider selection), worry less about muting unwanted notes, have a smaller neck on your bass, and choose from a wider selection of instruments. And four strings weigh less than the equivalent five string. Only little things, admittedly, but they are real!

Five string basses are all well and good but only if you actually need that fifth string.When I owned a five string bass I found that the only time I touched the B string was to mute it. Being able to play two octaves in a single position is useful, but I didn't ever need to do that. Four strings are perfectly usable for massive swathes of music and not all of us are interested in the stuff that needs more.

I get really bored of this whole "debate" to be honest. The "who needs five strings, four is enough" people are just as tedious and predictable as the "five strings are like four strings but much much better and everyone should get one" people. Fours work for some people, fives for others. Just buy what works for you and let other people do what works for them!

[discreet]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1428390007' post='2740719']
I don't get it. What can you do on a 4 string that you can't on a 5?
[/quote]

Er... play it in any meaningful way?

So am I to believe that the 5-string appeared because in the late 70s and early 80s non-bass players decided to take responsibility for the low-end of pop music with keyboards and play basslines lower than a 4-string? Sounds like an irresponsible lack of thought to me!

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1428397769' post='2740797']
I get really bored of this whole "debate" to be honest. The "who needs five strings, four is enough" people are just as tedious and predictable as the "five strings are like four strings but much much better and everyone should get one" people. Fours work for some people, fives for others. Just buy what works for you and let other people do what works for them!
[/quote]

Yes, this! I'm bored with the 'debate' too, now. Unfollow and peace out!

Edited April 7, 2015 by discreet

[juliusmonk]

As has been argued, a 4 is a different instrument. The highest 4 strings on my 5ers don't sound exactly like a 4. The neck in a 4 is easier to navigate for me, the neck profile differs. Some builders seem to make better 5s, some better 4s. I love them both in their own right. All players that imo have revolutionised bass playing have done so on a 4 - but that might be my ignorance.

By the same token, one could argue that a 6 is all a 5 is and then more. And then, why not go to 7, 8, 9?

[chris_b]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1428397769' post='2740797']
I get really bored of this whole "debate" to be honest. The "who needs five strings, four is enough" people are just as tedious and predictable as the "five strings are like four strings but much much better and everyone should get one" people.
[/quote]

It is a boring debate because it is never a debate.

A 4 stringer usually kicks off with "Why bother with 5 strings". A thread of negativity from 4 stringers usually follows with 5 stringers explaining why 5 works for them. A 4 stringer then usually accuses the 5 stringers of getting touchy and it all fizzles out only to start up and follow the same script a few months later.

It's the same line of thought as the tedious "Boutique basses are a waste of money", and "My £200 bass sounds as good as any £10000 bass", threads.

[hubrad]

I've got both 4s and 5s.. generally I'll go for the 5s, but as I think of them as different, not just a larger and smaller version of the same thing, I can justify owning TWICE AS MANY BASSES!
Win-win!

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1428401441' post='2740852']
It is a boring debate because it is never a debate.

A 4 stringer usually kicks off with "Why bother with 5 strings". A thread of negativity from 4 stringers usually follows with 5 stringers explaining why 5 works for them [i]and why 4 strings is inferior[/i]. A 4 stringer then usually accuses the 5 stringers of getting touchy [i]and a 5 stringer tells the 4 stringers that they're wrong to prefer 4 strings[/i] and it all fizzles out only to start up and follow the same script a few months later [i]except this time its a 5 stringer saying "why doesn't everyone play 5 strings"[/i]?.
[/quote]

Fixed that to add the bits you missed out Other than that I very much agree with you. The "cheap vs expensive" thing is equally dull. Personally I think some people are mental to spend £thousands on a bass but they probably think I'm mental for spending ££ on comic books. So long as families are being fed and clothed getting wound up about how other people spend their money is really odd.

[chris_b]

Do we really see posts from 5 stringers saying they are superior? Or that 4 strings are inferior?

I must have missed that bit.

[Bobthedog]

[quote name='hubrad' timestamp='1428403291' post='2740879']
I've got both 4s and 5s.. generally I'll go for the 5s, but as I think of them as different, not just a larger and smaller version of the same thing, I can justify owning TWICE AS MANY BASSES!
Win-win!
[/quote]

We have a winner!

[BigRedX]

IME the reason most people don't get on with a 5-string bass is that they simply don't get the right one for them, and therefore don't give it enough of a chance.

A 5-string bass is not a 4-stringer with a wider neck, one extra machine head, bridge saddle and pickup pole piece. It needs a far higher standard of construction to get the best out of the low B string, and a tweaking of all the measurements to accommodate the extra string without feeling either clumsy or cramped.

If you buy a cheap 5-stringer to "see how you get on with it" unless you are very lucky you are inevitably going to be disappointed. It's a bit like buying a cheap Chinese bass and wondering why it isn't as good as your CiJ or MiA Fender. IME you need to spend 25-50% more on a 5-string than you would on a 4-string to get one of the same standard.

My first 5-string bass was very average, but I could see that I liked the concept enough to make it worth while trying lots more until I found one that suited me. I had zero problems "adapting" to the extra string, whether that's because I'm extremely versatile or simply so average a player I don't get the nuances between different basses, I don't know.

As for more strings… IMO low B is about as low as you can go on a stringed instrument without requiring ridiculous scale lengths, and TBH I wouldn't even use a synth for lower notes unless the sound had a lot of high harmonic content. Going higher and you are into guitar territory but without any of the advantages of either tone or playability that the guitar with its shorter scale length brings.

[ambient]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1428397769' post='2740797']


Buy cheaper strings (and typically from a wider selection), worry less about muting unwanted notes, have a smaller neck on your bass, and choose from a wider selection of instruments. And four strings weigh less than the equivalent five string. Only little things, admittedly, but they are real!

Five string basses are all well and good but only if you actually need that fifth string.When I owned a five string bass I found that the only time I touched the B string was to mute it. Being able to play two octaves in a single position is useful, but I didn't ever need to do that. Four strings are perfectly usable for massive swathes of music and not all of us are interested in the stuff that needs more.

I get really bored of this whole "debate" to be honest. The "who needs five strings, four is enough" people are just as tedious and predictable as the "five strings are like four strings but much much better and everyone should get one" people. Fours work for some people, fives for others. Just buy what works for you and let other people do what works for them!
[/quote]

With regard to the strings comment. Well you're gonna pay slightly more because there's an extra string to pay for.
With regard to choice, you get all the choice of a 4 string bass. My 6 is currently strung with a 105, 85, 75, 50, 30, 20 set. It may have been the case years ago that string gauges were limited, not anymore though.

Muting comes with playing, it's just practice.

Wider neck, well you have an extra string. Though some 5s do have narrow necks, there's an ibanez 6 with 14mm spacing and a really narrow neck.

Edited April 7, 2015 by ambient

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1428405718' post='2740923']
Do we really see posts from 5 stringers saying they are superior? Or that 4 strings are inferior?

I must have missed that bit.
[/quote]

Its implicit in the endless repetition of "anything you can do on a four you can do on a five, plus more besides".

[funkle]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1428410388' post='2740995']
IME the reason most people don't get on with a 5-string bass is that they simply don't get the right one for them, and therefore don't give it enough of a chance.

A 5-string bass is not a 4-stringer with a wider neck, one extra machine head, bridge saddle and pickup pole piece. It needs a far higher standard of construction to get the best out of the low B string, and a tweaking of all the measurements to accommodate the extra string without feeling either clumsy or cramped.

If you buy a cheap 5-stringer to "see how you get on with it" unless you are very lucky you are inevitably going to be disappointed. It's a bit like buying a cheap Chinese bass and wondering why it isn't as good as your CiJ or MiA Fender. IME you need to spend 25-50% more on a 5-string than you would on a 4-string to get one of the same standard.

[/quote]

+1 to all this. I tried out some cheap 5 stringers and they were just awful. Horrible sounding B string, necks probably not stiff enough. Took me ages to figure out what string spacing and nut width I wanted to feel comfy (17.5mm and as narrow as I can get).

I'm of the camp where I think neck stiffness makes a bigger difference to B string sound than scale length, though of course scale length affects harmonic content. I found I didn't like the tone of 32" or 30" basses so have stuck with 34" (and 35" on the 5er cause that's all Modulus do, though I would prefer a 34"). Cheaper basses just didn't have good enough build, I thought, to sound any good.

Quite apart from build quality, moving to 5 string opened up a can of worms around my technique as well that has needed some time to address. Getting a lot happier with it now though.

Play what you like. Who cares how many strings it has, if it sounds good.

Edited April 7, 2015 by funkle