What is the right balance between 'rhythmic support' and melodic playing?

[Andrej]

I know this is a noob question and the right answer would be somewhere along the lines of "as long as it sounds good, it's fine".[list]
[*]When is it safe to step out of the background and play a melodic fill/phrase?
[/list][list]
[*]When do you decide to contribute more actively in a harmonic sense? In a given part of the song? When the rest of the instruments are playing *this*?
[/list][list]
[*]When and why do you look at the drummer or at the other instruments? What triggers that decision?
[/list]
I know there are no 'true' answers for this, and that's exactly why I'm asking this questions here. I'm sure I can learn a lot from your experience.


Thanks!

Edited April 4, 2015 by Andrej

[fretmeister]

Listen to everything Jack Bruce ever did.

[Dazed]

I'd recommend Pino , Jamerson and Mark King. Amongst many others. Not the solo's and slap heavy stuff but he's a really melodic finger style player too and colours tracks with lots of melodic runs.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Andrej' timestamp='1428151365' post='2738525']
I know this is a noob question and the right answer would be somewhere along the lines of "as long as it sounds good, it's fine".[list]
[*]When is it safe to step out of the background and play a melodic fill/phrase?
[/list][list]
[*]When do you decide to contribute more actively in a harmonic sense? In a given part of the song? When the rest of the instruments are playing *this*?
[/list][list]
[*]When and why do you look at the drummer or at the other instruments? What triggers that decision?
[/list]
I know there are no 'true' answers for this, and that's exactly why I'm asking this questions here. I'm sure I can learn a lot from your experience.


Thanks!
[/quote]

Good afternoon, Andrej...

There are several ways of trying to answer your questions, and probably as many 'sets' of answers as members here. I'll give it a go, and we'll see what others can come up with.
There are different aspects to playing music, of any sort, and no more so than modern 'rock' and such. If one takes an academic approach, there are 'rules' (or rather; guidelines...) established over time in which some conventions can be found, such as 'The bass plays root/fifths mostly', or 'Follow the bass drum'. These will work in many settings, and can be picked up by listening, or even better, studying the playing of preceding artists (no point in giving a list of names; we all have different references...).
It is also one of the credos of 'modern' music that, when playing for fun, or being 'creative', one can play absolutely anything; at worst it would be classed as 'free jazz' or such. If one can duck the flying vegetables quickly enough, it can even be done on a public stage (but not for long...). The first rule is that there are no rules. The second rule states that one may ignore the first rule. In truth, there is a generally accepted set of harmonies and musical styles which are best respected until one has both the experience and talent to transgress. No, it's not a 'rule', but there's plenty enough scope for personal satisfaction within the playing field, without incessantly playing 'out'. Unfortunately, this requires a modicum of both patience and humility, sometimes in short supply, especially in youth. Enthusiasm can make up for these shortcomings, but only up to a point.
As for looking at (or, more to the point; listening to...) the other musicians, this is generally a given constant in the equation, and should be the case, all the time, of all participants. If I use a rugby analogy, I can't imagine a successful team, nor an interesting match, if the players are not 'together', aware of each and every move. Similarly then, in music, one reacts, and is reacted to, when all is 'right'. It doesn't always work, but that's when it's at its best, in my view.
Others will maybe have more practical replies; sorry for the rambling, but hope this helps.

[Ancient Mariner]

As someone who would be standing near you in a band setting - I'm a guitarist - let me answer your question by asking whether the things you want to do will add to the song being played, the music being created generally and the way the band works together?

[Andrej]

Hey, thanks for the quick replies.

I do pay attention to that when I'm listening to other players, but I thought It would be interesting to ask you to share your own personal experience with this.

Dad3353, I agree with what you've just said.
I don't play only bass, so I have different perspectives on what you've mentioned. I couldn't have phrased it betten than you though, it was refreshing to read your words.

[quote name='Ancient Mariner' timestamp='1428159043' post='2738633']
As someone who would be standing near you in a band setting - I'm a guitarist - let me answer your question by asking whether the things you want to do will add to the song being played, the music being created generally and the way the band works together?
[/quote]

Well, I don't like it when music sounds thin. For that reason, I always try to fill as much space as I can [i][b]with bass[/b][/i] . I also hate it when there's a huge gap between the bottom end and guitars (not only during solos, but also during melodic breaks, etc), so I need to move into that empty spot and fill it in with a phrase, a chord (played in a fitting manner), or simply fool around with the harmony, to keep ears entertained.

This is more frequent when there's only one guitarist in the band. You can't just stay in the rhythm section, but you can't jump out of it. There's a tango between the rhythm (not talking about low notes exclusively, but rhythm itself) and more relaxed melodies. Sometimes you have to stray from the rhythm into a melody, but follow the drums while you do so. Sometimes not, you just go with the guitars. It's a very interesting thing to discuss.

To make it short: To me, a good bassist can go back and forth from hitting the root note to playing chords and melodies WITHOUT YOU NOTICING any changes in the flow. I think it's awful when you notice a [b]bass player[/b] stops the rhythm to go to a chord, instead of just feeling the [b]bassline[/b] 'grow' into that chord. It has to be everywhere and be everything. Just like the ocean.

Sorry for the length of the message, I got carried away .

Edited April 4, 2015 by Andrej

[JoeEvans]

When in doubt, keep it simple, solid and groovy, and when you don't know what else to attend to, fixate on the kick drum. There's a deep funky undercurrent to lots of music that is created by the interaction between kick drum and bass - some notes you both play and some notes only one of you plays, and that interaction creates the groove. The notes you both play should be so tight that it sounds like a single instrument.

[Dad3353]

Music, in almost all contexts, is a question of contrasts. A loud passage only has value if there's a soft passage, and [i]vice versa[/i]. A fast part is balanced by a slower part. Silence is as important as notes, dynamiques is the name of the game. Permanent intensity becomes mundane, as the brain accepts it as the 'normal'. This balancing act is what differentiates 'good' music from bad. Overplaying (filling in all the gaps...) is, generally, counter-productive; all the life-breath is squeezed out. There is much to be said in favour of the pregnant pause. Silence is golden and all that.
There are extremes, of course, as with all things, but the emotion is not in the 'fullness'; quite the opposite. YMMV.

[JapanAxe]

If you are going to play a prominent lick that jumps out from the accompaniment, do it in a break between vocal lines; that way it will be heard, and you won't clash with the vocal.

[JoeEvans]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1428171494' post='2738818']
Music, in almost all contexts, is a question of contrasts. A loud passage only has value if there's a soft passage, and [i]vice versa[/i]. A fast part is balanced by a slower part. Silence is as important as notes, dynamiques is the name of the game. Permanent intensity becomes mundane, as the brain accepts it as the 'normal'. This balancing act is what differentiates 'good' music from bad. Overplaying (filling in all the gaps...) is, generally, counter-productive; all the life-breath is squeezed out. There is much to be said in favour of the pregnant pause. Silence is golden and all that.
There are extremes, of course, as with all things, but the emotion is not in the 'fullness'; quite the opposite. YMMV.
[/quote]
Or, as Beavis and Butthead put it when critiquing Radiohead's 'Creep':
"Why don't they have the bit that rocks all the way through?"
"Because if they didn't have the bit that sucks, the bit that rocks wouldn't rock as much."

[Andrej]

Thanks for the replies!

JapanAxe, I couldn't agree more with you.

Dad3353, I agree, but silences are still 'like' notes. They contribute to the shape of what we play. With gaps I'm referring to what holds everything together, or keeps it from sounding dull and/or lame.

Let's take a simple example:

This piece has a simple bassline.

During the main part, the bass strays a little bit upwards and keeps the whole thing from becoming static. It adds mostly rhythmic value, and it's 'independent' from the drums (or at least is sounds like the bass has a little bit more freedom against the static beat of the drums).
At 1:10, it goes along with the drums and guitars, links them together and adds both rhythmic and harmonic value.
At 1:27 it binds itself to the drums and defines the harmony of that bit.

These are simple things, but it's what makes the piece sound good, imho.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySlMyXNm8AI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8pib9Jw4gc[/url]

I don't know what you guys think.

Sorry for making it more complicated everytime I post, but you have valuable opinions. I just want to get more of those lol.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Andrej

[Dad3353]

Here's a couple of my reference points, as illustration (and they're great moments of rock, too..!)...

This is THE Jack Casady, one of the 'busiest' bassists around, 'live'...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjLuJ8dMY_0&list=PLC559A21DFE61E16F&index=6[/media]

This is the same Jack Casady, the same concert, with a different, very much more 'minimalist' approach...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCo4u5_koKs&list=PLC559A21DFE61E16F&index=4

...and here's another way of playing the bass in an integrated environment. Total freedom; total subservience...
([i]Disclaimer: May contain 'Grateful Dead'. Open with caution. Do not stop on the tracks[/i]...)

[media]http://youtu.be/z9mt_kdAmhU[/media]

Enjoy...

Edited April 4, 2015 by Dad3353

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1428171494' post='2738818']
Music, in almost all contexts, is a question of contrasts. A loud passage only has value if there's a soft passage, and [i]vice versa[/i]. A fast part is balanced by a slower part. Silence is as important as notes, dynamiques is the name of the game. Permanent intensity becomes mundane, as the brain accepts it as the 'normal'. This balancing act is what differentiates 'good' music from bad. Overplaying (filling in all the gaps...) is, generally, counter-productive; all the life-breath is squeezed out. There is much to be said in favour of the pregnant pause. Silence is golden and all that.
There are extremes, of course, as with all things, but the emotion is not in the 'fullness'; quite the opposite. YMMV.
[/quote]

And thus ended all discussion for the truth had been revealed...

[Dad3353]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1428183616' post='2738988']
And thus ended all discussion for the truth had been revealed...
[/quote]

You heard it here first..!

[gafbass02]

Good answers here. I don't have one, I just sorta feel it.

[Leonard Smalls]

Play whatever you feel it needs, or whatever you can get away with!

[MEDIA]http://youtu.be/JOGdAFxe9_0[/MEDIA]

[steve-bbb]

words of wisdom from Paul Jackson Jr

[MEDIA]http://youtu.be/jyA9nyy7M9o[/MEDIA]

Edited April 5, 2015 by steve-bbb

[paul_5]

[quote name='gafbass02' timestamp='1428196588' post='2739086']
Good answers here. I don't have one, I just sorta feel it.
[/quote]

This. Generally I reckon if it feels like it's building to a drum fill, then you're good to go (a bit) mad. Other than than, it's just taking care of business. Occasionally I like to play a harmony under the vocal line, but that's probably because I learned to play bass by jamming along to Rush records.

Ultimately it boils down to being sympathetic to the material; if you're not [i]adding[/i] to the piece, then you're spoiling it. So stop it.

Edited April 5, 2015 by paul_5

[JTUK]

You need to develop a degree of taste..and it's arguable that you either have it or you don't, and then you need to play with people that like your taste or bow to it..

[Andrej]

Thank you [b]all[/b] for your answers. I really find them useful.

[b]Leonard[/b], I kind of go along the lines of what you've said. However, I would also add what [b]JTUK[/b] said:

[u][i][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]"Play whatever you feel it needs, or whatever you can get away with + [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]You need to develop a degree of taste."[/font][/color][/i][/u]

[u][i]"[/i][/u][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][u][i]and it's arguable that you either have it or you don't"[/i][/u]. I didn't particularly enjoy that video you shared lol.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I will keep this in mind:[/font][/color]

[u][i][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Generally I reckon if it feels like it's building to a drum fill, then you're good to go (a bit) mad. Other than than, it's just taking care of business. Occasionally I like to play a harmony under the vocal line.[/font][/color][/i][/u]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]That's some good advice there. I personally like bass 'harmony games' between vocals and guitars. I mean harmonic lines in general, but mostly to lift either the vocals or the guitar.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][b]Dad3353[/b], thank you for your examples. The first video is a really good example of what I meant. [/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]An ex co-worker loves the grateful dead so much he bought us all one DVD for each when he decided to change jobs. His desk was next to mine, and he would always go like 'Dude, listen to this part, now! Forget what you're doing. Listen, listen'. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Thank you [b]steve[/b], that's some good advice there.[/font][/color]

[Bilbo]

The search for the answer to that question is generally referred to as 'your career'.

[Andrej]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1428261598' post='2739725']
The search for the answer to that question is generally referred to as 'your career'.
[/quote]

True.

[discreet]

He gets quite a lot of flak, but I think McCartney is one of the best proponents of the melodic (yet rhythmic) bassline out there.

[chris_b]

There is Duck Dunn and David Hood who are almost exclusively rhythmic with very little melodic content. McCartney who I'd put on the melodic only side and for both together I'd suggest James Jamerson, Pino, Nathan East and Chuck Rainey.

These guys (and many others) are totally different and totally great. I'd say play what you like, as long as what you play serves the music.

Then again the guy that's paying you also has to approve!

[Leonard Smalls]

[quote name='Andrej' timestamp='1428260978' post='2739718']
I didn't particularly enjoy that video you shared lol


[/quote]

Don't worry - Derek Bailey is a taste most people are fortunate enough (or not!) not to develop!
Though that is Derek at his most "easy listening"; at that recording Jamaaladeen attempted to high five Derek and said "Hey Derek, let's funk!"
The only time I saw Mr Bailey live was supporting Bill Laswell/John Zorn. The gig was him doing his trademark "pring, praaaang", with a dj who balanced records on coffee cups, and a keyboard player who played with his elbows.
Which shows there's a market for just about anything, if it's done with a modicum of skill.