Sarah5string Posted August 20, 2008 Author Share Posted August 20, 2008 Can I ask what you guys mean by 5th and 7ths?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parker_muse Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 G ----------------- D -----------4-6-7 A ----4-5-7------- E 5-7------------- This is A maj bar any silly mistakes by me. The 5th is the fifth note in the scale, so its an E in this case, the 7th fret on the A string. The 7th is the 7th note in the scale, so its a G# in this case, the 6th fret on the A string. 5ths go down aswell, so an octave below the other 5th. This would be the open E string. Does that help? I've only just started theory myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah5string Posted August 20, 2008 Author Share Posted August 20, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='266450' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:55 PM']Have a scan through this... [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16422"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16422[/url] I've neglected it of late, but will get back to updating it.[/quote] Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooks Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='266450' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:55 PM']Have a scan through this... [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16422"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16422[/url] I've neglected it of late, but will get back to updating it.[/quote] That's a great thread!! Good work there my man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 [quote name='Sarah5string' post='266443' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:52 PM']Can I ask what you guys mean by 5th and 7ths??[/quote] Yes, but my answers usually confuse people more. Dlloyd is the man at explaining this stuff. A 5th is the fifth note in the scale. When it comes to chords, the 5th is usually an important note in the construction of the chord. When it comes to the interval between two notes, a 5th is seven semi-tones above the first note. A perfect 5th is seven semi-tones above the root note. An augmented 5th is one semi-tone above that (ie. eight semi-tones above) and a dimished 5th is one semi-tone below that (ie. six semi-tones above). The problem with this thread - and especially my post - is that it's just confusing. I'd really recommend looking up dlloyd's theory primer in the Theory sub-forum. It explains everything clearly, simply and in the right order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah5string Posted August 20, 2008 Author Share Posted August 20, 2008 [quote name='parker_muse' post='266454' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:57 PM']G ----------------- D -----------4-6-7 A ----4-5-7------- E 5-7------------- This is A maj bar any silly mistakes by me. The 5th is the fifth note in the scale, so its an E in this case, the 7th fret on the A string. The 7th is the 7th note in the scale, so its a G# in this case, the 6th fret on the A string. 5ths go down aswell, so an octave below the other 5th. This would be the open E string. Does that help? I've only just started theory myself![/quote] Oooh I think I get it. Dear lord.. spent 5-6 years playing bass... and one afternoon on theory.. oops! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 a revelation!!! i have finally got what 3rd's 5th's are. what a twonk. the third or fifth note of the scale. yay. ok simple questions and its one i have just assumed, but the shape of the scale, say the major (i'm not talking TT s TT etc) i mean the shape of it on the neck. does that stay the same no matter where you play it? i have assumed it does and when played anywhere on the neck like this it sounds right but is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='266465' date='Aug 20 2008, 05:13 PM']ok simple questions and its one i have just assumed, but the shape of the scale, say the major (i'm not talking TT s TT etc) i mean the shape of it on the neck. does that stay the same no matter where you play it? i have assumed it does and when played anywhere on the neck like this it sounds right but is it?[/quote] On a standard bass in standard tuning (ie. in 4ths), then yes. On a guitar, with that pesky B-string, no. Edited August 20, 2008 by The Funk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Dunno if this helps or makes things worse but... 3rds on the whole are minor or major. A minor 3rd is 3 semi-tones above the root note. A major 3rd is 4 semi-tones above the root note. A scale or chord with a major 3rd is usually major (although it could be augmented depending on the 5th). A scale or chord with a minor 3rd is usually minor (although it could be diminished depending on the 5th). 2nds, 3rds, 6ths and 7ths are usually minor or major. 4ths and 5ths are usually perfect, diminished or augmented. Root note + minor 3rd + perfect 5th is a minor triad. Root note + major 3rd + perfect 5th is a major triad. Root note + minor 3rd + diminished 5th is a diminished triad. Root note + major 3rd + augmented 5th is an augmented triad. A major triad + minor 7th = dominant chord. A minor triad + minor 7th = minor 7 chord. You eventually get the hang of it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 bugger i just noticed that all that stuff about 5ths etc was posted just before my revelation and i didnt see that, had a nose and it fell into place, now i see it was put up as i wrote that post. doh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) [quote name='The Funk' post='266477' date='Aug 20 2008, 05:28 PM']Dunno if this helps or makes things worse but... 3rds on the whole are minor or major. A minor 3rd is 3 semi-tones above the root note. A major 3rd is 4 semi-tones above the root note. A scale or chord with a major 3rd is usually major (although it could be augmented depending on the 5th). A scale or chord with a minor 3rd is usually minor (although it could be diminished depending on the 5th). 2nds, 3rds, 6ths and 7ths are usually minor or major. 4ths and 5ths are usually perfect, diminished or augmented. Root note + minor 3rd + perfect 5th is a minor triad. Root note + major 3rd + perfect 5th is a major triad. Root note + minor 3rd + diminished 5th is a diminished triad. Root note + major 3rd + augmented 5th is an augmented triad. A major triad + minor 7th = dominant chord. A minor triad + minor 7th = minor 7 chord. You eventually get the hang of it all.[/quote] eh? man alive i need some lessons Edited August 20, 2008 by lowhand_mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='266483' date='Aug 20 2008, 05:36 PM']eh? man alive i need some lessons[/quote] Not from me, clearly! I'm the worst teacher in the world. That's why I don't have any students and try not to explain things to younger musicians. I just can't explain things in a helpful way at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 [quote name='The Funk' post='266486' date='Aug 20 2008, 05:39 PM']Not from me, clearly! I'm the worst teacher in the world. That's why I don't have any students and try not to explain things to younger musicians. I just can't explain things in a helpful way at all![/quote] sorry wasn't ment to knock ya, i keep meaning to learn this stuff but never really get time to sit down and do it (sorry sarah it appears i'm hijacking here, though hopefully this stuff might help you) i get the 3rds etc now, and what does diminished mean then? is it just moved down the neck a bit (tone or semitone?) and augmented is moved up the neck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='266496' date='Aug 20 2008, 05:59 PM']i get the 3rds etc now, and what does diminished mean then? is it just moved down the neck a bit (tone or semitone?) and augmented is moved up the neck?[/quote] A diminished 5th is one semi-tone lower than a perfect 5th. An augmented 5th is one semi-tone higher than a perfect 5th. A diminished 4th is one semi-tone lower than a perfect 4th. An augmented 4th is one semi-tone higher than a perfect 4th (and in exactly the same place as a diminished 5th). The note which is at the augmented 4th/diminished 5th is also called a tritone because it is three tones (six semi-tones) away from the root note - in either direction. A diminished 7th is one semi-tone lower than a minor 7th (I think) and two semi-tones lower than a major 7th. But don't worry about diminished 7ths for a while. (One fret = one semi-tone. Two semi-tones = one tone = two frets.) Edited August 20, 2008 by The Funk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 If you take all 12 notes of the chromatic scale and ascend in semi-tones, then: Root + 1 = minor 2nd + 2 = major 2nd + 3 = minor 3rd + 4 = major 3rd / diminished 4th + 5 = perfect 4th + 6 = tritone / diminished 5th / augmented 4th + 7 = perfect 5th + 8 = minor 6th / augmented 5th + 9 = major 6th +10 = minor 7th +11 = major 7th +12 = octave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGH Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Sarah,If Im on MSN,gimme a shout re:metal and scales used..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' post='266348' date='Aug 20 2008, 03:13 PM']The argeggios focus on what is central to the bassline, without the fripperies of the non-chordal notes. Rather than mindlessly go up and down the scales, find the chord sequence to a song you like and then work on applying the relevant argeggios to each chord to create a bassline. Also look at the original bass line and relate that back to building it from the arpeggio. Focusing on scales as a bass player is as useful as a beginning drummer focusing on fills - start with the essentials! Alex[/quote]That's a little like saying I am a painter who only uses two colours. If you learn just the arpeggiated notes of the chords you are using, you are missing out on millions of interesting interactions in dynamics, mood and texture. I don't play just jazz. Edited August 20, 2008 by steve-soar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB26354 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 A chord and its related scale are the same information played horizontally and vertically. If you play (ascending) C-D-E-F-G-A-B (forget the top octave C for now) one after the other, that's a C major scale. If you play every other note of that major scale and keep going once you've got to the octave C you get: C-E-G-B-D-F-A (again, forget the top C). It's the same thing. You don't have to play all seven notes as an arpeggio but if you hold a major triad (C-E-G) down and play either the major scale or that arpeggio, it's the same thing. Can't learn one without the other Of course, depending on the chord, you can play more than one scale. To start off with it is probably easier to learn the most common scale that goes with a given chord and get the sound of the scale in relation to the chord in your ear. Do [i]not[/i] learn to play scales just by themselves - relate them to some kind of harmony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 [quote name='XB26354' post='266559' date='Aug 20 2008, 07:33 PM']Of course, depending on the chord, you can play more than one scale.[/quote] I think that's the reason Alex says what he does and why I kind of agree with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan_da_man Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Major, minor, Major up 2 octaves, major pentatonic, minor pentatonic. That should about cover it. And if you haven't already, learn the 12 bar blues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' post='266328' date='Aug 20 2008, 02:46 PM']I don't believe scales are the right place to start on bass. Instead, learn the basic arpeggios - major, minor, dominant 7th, minor 7th, major 7th, half diminished, diminished. If you're outlining a chord sequence that will help you far more than learning whole scales in each key. It's all about the root, third, fifth and seventh. You can do so much with those four basic notes. Alex[/quote] +1 - I'm teaching my "student" this at the moment and he's flying with it. He's started adding the scale tones recently and things are really slotting into place for him. He'd never touched a bass until April this year! Edited August 21, 2008 by Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 I loved the way that a couple of members were like "learn arpeggios before scales, you know root 3rd, 5th, 7th", and when asked what the numbers meant, had to relate it back to scales! Perfec! Learn some basic scales and how they relate to each other, take the arpeggios from that, there are loads of arpeggios that take from all notes in all scales. Then practice it in a musical context, what I did was buy a cheap looping pedal, lay down some basic chords (guitar/piano/bass...whatever) and just practice my scales, modes and arpeggios over it, makes it more relevant than just plonking up and down the fretboard! Si p.s. Phrygian Dominant is a particular fave of mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayfan Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Sibob' post='266824' date='Aug 21 2008, 09:08 AM']Phrygian Dominant is a particular fave of mine![/quote] I prefer Miss Whiplash. Edited August 21, 2008 by stingrayfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='266614' date='Aug 20 2008, 08:57 PM']With an interval (the distance between two notes) you have a 'quantity' and a 'quality'. The 'quantity' is the number bit. Ab to Eb is a fifth. Ab to E is a fifth. Ab to E# is a fifth. A to Eb is a fifth. A to E is a fifth. A to E# is a fifth. A# to Eb is a fifth. A# to E is a fifth. A# to E# is a fifth. You get the picture? They're all fifths of some kind, even if they clearly aren't all equal. Because it's A 'something' to E 'something', it's a fifth of some kind. A B C D E = 1 2 3 4 5... it's a fifth. Ax to Ebb is a fifth. Abb to Ex is a fifth. And so on. The 'quality' bit describes what sort of fifth it is. The way the 'qualities' are named depend on the intervals that are found in the major scale We'll use C major, just so it gets rid of the sharps. First here's the 'quantities': C to C = unison C to D = second C to E = third C to F = fourth C to G = fifth C to A = sixth C to B = seventh C to C' = octave The 'qualities' of the second, third, sixth and seventh are called 'major' The 'qualities' of the unison, fourth, fifth and octave are called 'perfect' That seems stupid and unnecessary, I know, but believe me... there are very good reasons for those categories. Just accept it! Major intervals can be flattened to make them 'minor' intervals. So, while C to A is a major sixth, C to Ab is a minor sixth. Perfect intervals can be flattened to make them 'diminished' C to Gb is a diminished fifth. Perfect intervals can be sharpened to make them 'augmented' C to G# is an augmented fifth. You can also get diminished and augmented versions of major/minor... but I wouldn't worry about that for now.[/quote] right so diminished and augmented notes are based on perfect notes and minor are used for major notes? right? and i'm assuming you can't sharpen a major interval? (seeing as you didnt say you could) ah ok just realised something else, i was assuming that a 3rd or fifth was the third or fifth note in the scale, which i suppose it is but it's not strictly that, a third of fifth or seventh for that matter would still be that even if you took the major scale and then played it chromatically (oooh hark at him) as they would no longer be the 3rd or 5th note in the scale? in fact if you played it chromatically you would have several 3rds or 5ths yes? as you would have sharps and flats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah5string Posted August 21, 2008 Author Share Posted August 21, 2008 What's diminished and augmented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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