Are some sound engineers 'enemies of bass' ?

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='Baxter' timestamp='1429799492' post='2755083']
I got a sound engineer to mic my cab the other night without looking at me like I'd sh*t on the stage
[/quote]

most of us are nice and will do if it makes sense

[Baxter]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1429799761' post='2755086']
most of us are nice and will do if it makes sense
[/quote]

I sometimes have trouble getting them to do it and they want the DI instead. I'd much rather have the tone from the amp - I understand it's easier to do but my spies in the audience always reckon the mic is better.

[Huge Hands]

Wayne, I think you're probably picking up on people who are just a**eholes in general, regardless of whether they're a engineer, promoter, doorman, barman or whatever. I could reel of a list of musos I used to work with who were nightmares and probably brought out the worst in my attittude when I was engineering.

It is all about working with people, and some people just can't. Funnily enough, I had a big row with my own band on Tuesday because, even though they know my background and normally happily peddle me out as a "sound expert" to deal with engineers - they refused to acknowledge me when I asked them to turn down because the rehearsal studio amp I had was a bit underpowered and I couldn't hear myself - they were way too loud anyway. It certainly brought out the grumpy sound engineer in me that night - and we're still building bridges with each other 2 days later!

In reading your earlier post, and as Ironside1966 alluded to, the venue may have told you to turn up at 5pm, but probably forgot to tell the engineer, or just assumed he would be there. If, as you said in your post, you approached him with the "where the effing hell have you been" attitude, then that probably would have put the rest of your day on a bad footing with him, and might explain why he didn't respond well to you.

EDIT: I'm originally from Gateshead, but it wasn't me

Edited April 23, 2015 by Huge Hands

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1429629447' post='2753412']
The other aspect is do you know what limits the venue are working too? maybe they can't push too much because they are working to sound limit factors.
[/quote]

This is a very important point that crez5150 makes. One of the reasons I gave up live engineering was that venues like where I worked were getting jittery about EU laws on hearing health and safety - they believed they had to stick to a 90dBSPL average or all bar staff etc would have to wear ear defenders etc. I remember walking in to a venue where I worked and it sounded horrible. I went to the sound box to see the engineer holding a dBSPL meter and trying to mix whilst watching that because a manager had told him off. The easiest way to bring the level down for him was to pull all of the bass end out.

Mind you, even when I switched his masters off, the general venue and backline sound were still pushing him over his 90dB "limit".

I also once played a gig where the drummer and percussionist kept tripping out the venue's PA safety limiter in a soundcheck - even before we'd put anything through the PA....

[Wayne Firefly]

Well, this weekend's gigs all had fantastic soundmen. From a small club in Cumbria to a larger club in Wakefield and an 02 in Glasgow, the soundmen couldnt have been friendlier and more helpful. Great attitudes, friendly.. just great !!!!
Brilliant work !!
Just goes to show it is just people's attitudes that can change things soooo much.

[Lozz196]

Yep, this weekend we played at a fairly small venue and the soundman was great. The overall volume was kept down to a limit where you could hear each instrument, and have a - albeit strained - chat if you wanted to. So much better than an onslaught against the ears.

[Wayne Firefly]

Played a small but popular venue last weekend and the engineer obviously has his set up dialled and bands pass through there week by week. Same problem here....Nice guy but he just assumed we were the same as all the other bands that play and made his decision of how we were to sound.
I tend to lean towards the Bill Gould side of tone and when our singer puts her guitar down its effectively a three piece. So now the bass takes up one third of the sonic space, drums, guitar and bass creating a wall of sound.
When the guitar player solos or does little fills or detail bits, there is no drop out in power (if you get my drift)
Not this time.... as it was a LOT quieter than usual and loads of drive and attack were gone.
So, the band sounds weaker by default and less aggressive.
Maybe I should just take it on the chin and accept that not everyone gets it !!!!!

[Rich]

Probably the best live sound I've ever had (and one of the best overall sounds for us as a band) was engineered by our very own joegarcia. It takes a bassist...

[Skol303]

Mixing is all about compromise and in my [i](albeit limited)[/i] experience, mixing bass is one of the more tricky balancing acts to get right

A lot of it depends on the room you're playing in. It's very easy to end up with gigantic 'standing waves' that can result in huge build-ups of muddy bass that can easily swamp the rest of the mix. Sometimes these can be tamed with a little surgical EQ'ing; other times you need to break out the chainsaw and carve big chunks out of the bass frequencies to get anywhere near a decent sound (especially if the room isn't set up for live music, which is typical of most local pubs).

So it's not always the sound guy/girl's fault... more often than not you're both fighting the same common 'enemy' - that being a crappy room.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1442924749' post='2870556']
Mixing is all about compromise and in my [i](albeit limited)[/i] experience, mixing bass is one of the more tricky balancing acts to get right

A lot of it depends on the room you're playing in. It's very easy to end up with gigantic 'standing waves' that can result in huge build-ups of muddy bass that can easily swamp the rest of the mix. Sometimes these can be tamed with a little surgical EQ'ing; other times you need to break out the chainsaw and carve big chunks out of the bass frequencies to get anywhere near a decent sound (especially if the room isn't set up for live music, which is typical of most local pubs).

So it's not always the sound guy/girl's fault... more often than not you're both fighting the same common 'enemy' - that being a crappy room.
[/quote]

But big standing waves are a time domain problem - they manifest differently in different parts of the room. Using a frequency domain solution (EQ) to try and cure them is never going to be truly effective.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Baxter' timestamp='1429800246' post='2755094']
I sometimes have trouble getting them to do it and they want the DI instead. I'd much rather have the tone from the amp - I understand it's easier to do but my spies in the audience always reckon the mic is better.
[/quote]

Most amps have a DI out which is a good compromise. It helps if you have a relatively neutral sounding cab then what you hear will be pretty close to what is comming out FOH.

[elephantgrey]

[quote name='Wayne Firefly' timestamp='1429536727' post='2752356']
I tend to find, the more professional the [b][i]enter profession here[/i][/b], the less hassle they are and get the job done quicker.
The weekend warrior types tend to be the ones who complain more and have the crappy attitudes.
[/quote]
Fixed.

This thread reminds me of a joke, Q: Whats the difference between a monitor engineer and a toilet? A: A toilet only has one A**hole S***ing on it at a time.

[Skol303]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1442924998' post='2870560']


But big standing waves are a time domain problem - they manifest differently in different parts of the room. Using a frequency domain solution (EQ) to try and cure them is never going to be truly effective.
[/quote]

Very true. But other than treating the room or drastically shifting the PA/back line around, EQ is pretty much all you have to try and tackle it in 99% of small clubs and pubs.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1442949564' post='2870911']
Very true. But other than treating the room or drastically shifting the PA/back line around, EQ is pretty much all you have to try and tackle it in 99% of small clubs and pubs.
[/quote]

Fair enough, but you have to acknowledge that using EQ to try and fix this problem is only really going to be effective in a couple of places in the room (where the PA desk is and anywhere that shares most of the same nodes) and everywhere else you are probably going to make the sound worse.

Edited September 22, 2015 by BigRedX