Key signature help required

[CamdenRob]

Morning all.

Looking for a bit of advice regarding key signatures.

I've been putting together some material for a new band and I've been using modes of the harmonic minor quite a bit. I am also writing everything down in proper notation as I've written stuff in the past only to forget it entirly a couple of weeks down the line and have to spend ages working it out again by ear from recordings...

So if I'm playing (for arguments sake) a riff in E Phrygian #3 as a mode of the harmonic minor, which key signature do I put that in? Do I put it in C (same as the regular E Phrygian) and every time I play the G# just note it as an accidental?

The answer may well be obvious but my theory is self taught so I have some gaps

Thanks folks.

Edited April 24, 2015 by CamdenRob

[Bilbo]

I don't 'know' the answer but I woudl approach it with the view that the purpose of the key signature is to reduce the need for cluttering up the stave with accidentals so, using the principle of enabling reading as opposed to being 'correct', if you are in Em as you say, then a key signature of C would mean the only accidentals would be the G#. I would therefore use C sa the key signature.

Jazz musicians often transcribe solos with a C signature because the nature of the lines means that every bar has as many accidentals as notes in the key signature so it becomes all but academic. It always surprises me how rarely I see a key signature on a chart.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1429862941' post='2755599']
I don't 'know' the answer but I woudl approach it with the view that the purpose of the key signature is to reduce the need for cluttering up the stave with accidentals so, using the principle of enabling reading as opposed to being 'correct', if you are in Em as you say, then a key signature of C would mean the only accidentals would be the G#. I would therefore use C sa the key signature.

Jazz musicians often transcribe solos with a C signature because the nature of the lines means that every bar has as many accidentals as notes in the key signature so it becomes all but academic. It always surprises me how rarely I see a key signature on a chart.
[/quote]

Thanks Bilbo... Was just trying to do things the right way, I'm new to writing music down and didn't want to get into any bad habits.

I find key signatures very useful further down the line if I want to add more instruments to a piece as know where I'm anchored melodically. Without knowing where I am I just end up playing roots and fifths to match the chord sequence!

Edited April 24, 2015 by CamdenRob

[frannie01]

Hello mate
Just came across this thread. Not sure I fully understand what your saying but being a theory lover I thought I'd respond.If you are referring to the mode of the Phrygian Major,then if you treat that scale ,chord or arrpegio as a dominant or V chord it will Identify where your one chord is eg .........E7b9 ( altered dominant or Phrygian Major mode ) comes from and resolves to Amin and invariably Amin is the relative minor of C Major.

Hope this helps if not then please let me know......

[philparker]

Hey, good answer! I would have done as suggested, but couldn't explain why, theoretically, so that makes sense and teaches me something as well!

[ras52]

[quote name='frannie01' timestamp='1430041044' post='2757274']
Hello mate
Just came across this thread. Not sure I fully understand what your saying but being a theory lover I thought I'd respond.If you are referring to the mode of the Phrygian Major,then if you treat that scale ,chord or arrpegio as a dominant or V chord it will Identify where your one chord is eg .........E7b9 ( altered dominant or Phrygian Major mode ) comes from and resolves to Amin and invariably Amin is the relative minor of C Major.

Hope this helps if not then please let me know......
[/quote]

That makes sense if you're "in" A minor. I think the OP is "in" the weird E mode itself - E F G# A B C D if I've understood correctly. As it happens, the aforementioned suggestion of "no key sig" and A minor give the same result

But what if the same mode started on F?

F Gb A Bb C Db Eb

Here, If I chose to use a key sig, I'd want to strike a compromise between "use key sig for fewer accidentals" and "use key sig to tell the player what key we're in". In which case I'd ask, is this mode "sort of major" or "sort of minor"?

If it's majorish, Use F major key sig (Bb) and "accidentalise" the Gb, Db, Eb.

If it's minorish, Use F minor key sig and "accidentalise" the Gb and A.

Or you could be like Bela Bartok, who used non-standard sigs on some of his eastern-European modal pieces (he'd probably write a sig of just a G# for your original example).

In my view the purpose of the key sig - and in fact all notation - is to communicate how the music goes. Use a key sig if it helps, and don't use one if it doesn't. "Unconventional" notation (like the Bartok) is going to chew up precious minutes of rehearsal time, so the key (ha ha) is to follow convention whenever possible, and be as clear as you can when you depart from convention.

[CamdenRob]

So the general consensus seems to be just to do whatever is easiest

I didn't want to put it in C because of the G#. If it was a standard E phrygian (from the C major scale) then fine as it's all notes from C major anyway obviously. I was also unsure about using C as obviously the dominant phrygian (#3rd) is the mode based on the dominant of the harmonic minor, so the root of the harmonic minor from which the E dominant phrygian is taken would actually be A and not C...

As a bit of a side note, whenever anyone mentions relative minors I've always assumed that to be the [s]**Melodic[/s]** Natural Minor (b7th) so it works diatonically with the other modes of the Major scale. I've always treated the Harmonic minor and it's associated modes as a totally seperate system with it's own chords built from the triads of the respective modes etc.

Some excellent input here from people who clearly know a lot more than me about these things though. Thanks folks...

** edit ** wrong minor!

Edited April 27, 2015 by CamdenRob

[EliasMooseblaster]

Have you noticed that any pieces written in a harmonic minor scale usually (always?) use the key signature of the natural minor (Aeolian mode), and simply sharpen the 7th whenever it crops up on the stave? My guess would be, if you're in a mode of A harmonic minor, you'd use the natural/Aeolian key signature and just sharpen what is now the 3rd when you encounter it. Which will probably be more frequent than the 7th, admittedly, but I guess that's the price we pay for dabbling in strange scales and modes!

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1430132192' post='2758176']
Have you noticed that any pieces written in a harmonic minor scale usually (always?) use the key signature of the natural minor (Aeolian mode), and simply sharpen the 7th whenever it crops up on the stave? My guess would be, if you're in a mode of A harmonic minor, you'd use the natural/Aeolian key signature and just sharpen what is now the 3rd when you encounter it. Which will probably be more frequent than the 7th, admittedly, but I guess that's the price we pay for dabbling in strange scales and modes!
[/quote]

That's pretty much the conculsion I've arrived at.

I've not noticed what people usually do as I've never read a piece of music! I'm just starting to write my own stuff down hence this thread.

[ras52]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1430131824' post='2758171']
So the general consensus seems to be just to do whatever is easiest

I didn't want to put it in C because of the G#. If it was a standard E phrygian (from the C major scale) then fine as it's all notes from C major anyway obviously. I was also unsure about using C as obviously the dominant phrygian (#3rd) is the mode based on the dominant of the harmonic minor, so the root of the harmonic minor from which the E dominant phrygian is taken would actually be A and not C...

As a bit of a side note, whenever anyone mentions relative minors I've always assumed that to be the Melodic Minor (b7th) so it works diatonically with the other modes of the Major scale. I've always treated the Harmonic minor and it's associated modes as a totally seperate system with it's own chords build from the triads of the respective modes etc.

Some excellent input here from people who clearly know a lot more than me about these things though. Thanks folks...
[/quote]

There's a subtle difference between the key sig of C major and not using a key sig - a bit like the difference between "" (an empty string) and NULL in computing!

Re. relative (and other minors), the key sig doesn't take into account alterations for the melodic/harmonic variants. In conventional (classical) notation, A minor is A minor is A minor. If the notes of a given part are fulfilling a purely harmonic [b]function[/b], then we'll see G#s popping up, e.g. the classical IV-V-I sequence in A minor is Fm-G(major)-Am. But traditionally, the kink of the augmented second (F-G#) was avoided in a melodic context. As in the harmonic context, the leading-note G# "wants" to resolve to the A, so the ascending melodic version of the scale smooths out the kink by approaching it from F#. Then on the way down it's the "natural" (Aeolian) form, A-G-F.

Then those blues guys came along and started flattening sevenths all over the place, usually favouring the pentatonic scale over the diationic form (so the question of whether the sixth is raised or not, as in the melodic minor scale, is redundant), with the consequence that the "natural" minor has become the prevalent form of the minor scale in rock music.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='ras52' timestamp='1430133302' post='2758190']
There's a subtle difference between the key sig of C major and not using a key sig - a bit like the difference between "" (an empty string) and NULL in computing!

Re. relative (and other minors), the key sig doesn't take into account alterations for the melodic/harmonic variants. In conventional (classical) notation, A minor is A minor is A minor. If the notes of a given part are fulfilling a purely harmonic [b]function[/b], then we'll see G#s popping up, e.g. the classical IV-V-I sequence in A minor is Fm-G(major)-Am. But traditionally, the kink of the augmented second (F-G#) was avoided in a melodic context. As in the harmonic context, the leading-note G# "wants" to resolve to the A, so the ascending melodic version of the scale smooths out the kink by approaching it from F#. Then on the way down it's the "natural" (Aeolian) form, A-G-F.

Then those blues guys came along and started flattening sevenths all over the place, usually favouring the pentatonic scale over the diationic form (so the question of whether the sixth is raised or not, as in the melodic minor scale, is redundant), with the consequence that the "natural" minor has become the prevalent form of the minor scale in rock music.
[/quote]

That makes perfect sense... I would have made more sense by saying natural minor instead of melodic!

[frannie01]

Hi

I hope this doesn't confuse the issue [b]but it may help[/b] ?

[b]The Majors[/b]

We can all agree that western diatonic (within a key) harmony is constructed from the [b]Chromatic and invariably The Major Scale[/b].1 of the fundamentally most important chord sequences in the C Major Scale happens on the[b] I (C) IV (F) V (G)[/b] of the scale. This has given us the Blues Jazz Rock and roll plus most popular composition contains this harmonic movement with additional use of diatonic substitution to some degree.These Major chords are commonly known as the [b]Primary Chords/Triads[/b] and give us a sense of key and use the perfect cadence [b](V - I)[/b] to establish both a Tonal and Key centre .

[b]Now,The minors[/b].The reason that the 6th degree of the Major scale is named the relative ( Natural) minor is because it establishes a similar chord movement for the minor chords from the C Major Scale for example ([b]I Amin IV Dmin V Emin)[/b] this secondary sequence creates similar harmonic movement but minorish in sound for the Major scale. These are known as the secondary triads.The only problem ? with this chord sequence is that it doesn't generate enough tension when resolving from V - I ( try it Emin to Amin ) nice but no cigar !

So the best way to resolve this is to substitute a[b] (dominant on The 5th degree) similar to that found in the Major Chord sequence of I IV V.[/b] Doing this will put back the tension required and resolves nicely to A minor( E7 to Am7) when you analyse this additional E dominant chord you will find it has a [b]G# E7 = ( E G# B D ) and comes from the scale Phrygian Major or E7b9[/b] chord.Now if you refer back to the natural minor scale and replace the G with the G# ......well you tell me

Yes voila !! the [b]Harmonic minor[/b] !! So in my mind the A harmonic minor can still be related to the original Natural minor scale and therefore C Major

Am I brilliant or what !! ( well actually my Bass teacher Laurence Canty enlightened me (a great teacher and Bloke. Check out his book Bass Guitar The Complete Guide

Cheers

Paul F

Edited May 25, 2015 by frannie01

[HughRichardson]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1429857342' post='2755528']
Morning all.

Looking for a bit of advice regarding key signatures.

I've been putting together some material for a new band and I've been using modes of the harmonic minor quite a bit. I am also writing everything down in proper notation as I've written stuff in the past only to forget it entirly a couple of weeks down the line and have to spend ages working it out again by ear from recordings...

So if I'm playing (for arguments sake) a riff in E Phrygian #3 as a mode of the harmonic minor, which key signature do I put that in? Do I put it in C (same as the regular E Phrygian) and every time I play the G# just note it as an accidental?

The answer may well be obvious but my theory is self taught so I have some gaps

Thanks folks.
[/quote]

There are a few ways to approach this. Some would say go with A minor/C Major as that matches with the notes a lot better and have G# as an accidental. Another I've seen a few times is to use the key signature of the harmonic resolution point. In other words if the music constantly resolves on E then you would put it in E Major because phrygian dominant (phrygian #3) is a major tonality. If you opt for the 2nd tactic then you'll have to include a lot of other accidentals on the score so I would put it in Amin/Cmaj and then add the G# as an accidental but having just the G# in the key signature isn't common practice unless you're in avant grade and contemporary classical or jazz music.

Hope that helps

[Bilbo]

I just read up on this and the whole thing is summed up in one sentence:

'The key signature is not the same as the key'

A key signature is not the same as a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_%28music%29"]key[/url]; key signatures are merely notational devices. They are convenient principally for [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic"]diatonic[/url] or [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonality"]tonal[/url] music. Reducing the number of accidentals is their objective but, outside of very simple musics, it will never eliminate the need for them. Writing a piece that is in a melodic minor key, you could use the Major key a third higher or the minor key a third lower and both would have the same number of accidentals. Neither is wrong.