What's In A Nut?

[lowregisterhead]

As a follow-up to my recent thread about dead spots, what do the BC readership think is the difference, if any, of different types of nut material?

Does it matter if its plastic, bone, brass, aluminium or graphite? Does it affect the tone, sustain etc., and if so how? Does it affect just the open strings, or does it go further than that?

I'd appreciate any input!

[HowieBass]

I've read more than once that bone is the best material - not sure why this ought to be; might be that there's no 'grab' on the strings as you tune up/down. Brass seemed to be all the rage in the 80s, perhaps more of a fashion fad rather than for good reasons. Graphite is supposed to be self-lubricating and I suppose that would be my preference were I to swap out the plastic ones (called 'synthetic bone' - yeah, right) on my Squiers. I think the way it's cut has as much if not more influence than the material used. A poorly cut nut is going to make tuning difficult if it grabs the string windings - open strings might buzz with too wide a string slot. Getting the right nut slot height is really important as it influences action and intonation. These days I now think of the nut, frets and bridge saddles as semi-transparent mirrors - points at which the string doesn't (or rather, shouldn't) vibrate and vibrations within the string should bounce back from these points. The more energy you can keep within the string the longer it'll vibrate. Some vibrational energy does, of course, leak into and beyond these fixed points - transferring into the headstock, fingerboard/neck, bass body and it's the only way that I can see tone being affected (in a subtractive manner via leakage as parts of the instrument resonate at certain frequencies - you've already mentioned dead spots which is an extreme example).

[throwoff]

I'll just throw my regular cat amongst the pigeons and say I honestly believe that nothing in an instrument makes a blind bit of difference to tone than the pickups and wiring.

However a good quality nut is a good investment. It will improve tuning stability and should last longer than a cheap unbranded plastic jobby

[franzbassist]

The nut is irrelevant once you fret a note anyway, is'nt it?!

[Bassassin]

Doesn't make the slightest difference what it's made of as long as it's fitted & cut properly. Logically a zero-fret in front of the nut is a far more sensible idea - but that just ain't fashionable.

Jon.

[alembic1989]

[quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1430224447' post='2759128']
I'll just throw my regular cat amongst the pigeons and say I honestly believe that nothing in an instrument makes a blind bit of difference to tone than the pickups and wiring.

However a good quality nut is a good investment. It will improve tuning stability and should last longer than a cheap unbranded plastic jobby
[/quote]
Hmmm an interesting point of view.
Makes me wonder why we bother with high grade ( or otherwise) instruments when (according to you) all we need to do is (for example) get some Fodera pick ups and loom...stick them in a cheap plywood 70s Jap body...and hey presto we'll have the Fodera tone.
Are you sure my friend :-)

[fretmeister]

[quote name='alembic1989' timestamp='1430226284' post='2759160']
Hmmm an interesting point of view.
Makes me wonder why we bother with high grade ( or otherwise) instruments when (according to you) all we need to do is (for example) get some Fodera pick ups and loom...stick them in a cheap plywood 70s Jap body...and hey presto we'll have the Fodera tone.
Are you sure my friend :-)
[/quote]

+1

I've had a pair of otherwise identical instruments with some wood differences and there was a clear difference.

I doubt an audience would notice, but I did

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Bassassin' timestamp='1430225493' post='2759148']
Doesn't make the slightest difference what it's made of as long as it's fitted & cut properly. Logically a zero-fret in front of the nut is a far more sensible idea - but that just ain't fashionable.

Jon.
[/quote]I've got an old Wilson guitar with the 'zero fret' and I've always thought "what a good idea" no more fannying around cutting the nut to exactley the right depth, I've often wondered why it's not more widely used.

[throwoff]

[quote name='alembic1989' timestamp='1430226284' post='2759160']
Hmmm an interesting point of view.
Makes me wonder why we bother with high grade ( or otherwise) instruments when (according to you) all we need to do is (for example) get some Fodera pick ups and loom...stick them in a cheap plywood 70s Jap body...and hey presto we'll have the Fodera tone.
Are you sure my friend :-)
[/quote]

Yes, I am 100% sure, and the argument for two identical instruments sounding different doesn't take into account that even machine wound pickups are different between one and the next.

People buy Foderas and the like because of the way they look, and you know what, I don't have any disagreement with that, I would love a heavily flamed maple Warwick Streamer for instance because it looks gorgeous and timber of those high qualities is of the same level of rarity as precious stones and metals.

The mind is a powerful thing, people can be easily convinced something is better than something else just because of the price tag.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1430228726' post='2759193']
I've got an old Wilson guitar with the 'zero fret' and I've always thought "what a good idea" no more fannying around cutting the nut to exactley the right depth, I've often wondered why it's not more widely used.
[/quote]

Exactly. I do my own set-ups, including fret levelling & dressing - the biggest pain in the arse is accurately cutting nut slots. Use a zero-fret and the nut just becomes a string guide. I'm not even convinced Warwick's adjustable nuts have any real advantage over it.

J.

[Grangur]

I've got a flamed maple Warwick. I changed the nut from the standard plastic one to a brass just-a-nut III and the tone of open notes changed significantly.

I don't play many open notes, so I don't know if it was a good investment. But that's my 2p worth.

I'm also curious how one can pick up to identical Fender USA standard P's and they do sound different. So maybe there is a variation in the windings of the pups? I doubt that. In these days of pups being machine wound in mass production factories. So it has to be down to the quality of the plyboard/alder etc used in the plank?

[throwoff]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1430229789' post='2759215']
I've got a flamed maple Warwick. I changed the nut from the standard plastic one to a brass just-a-nut III and the tone of open notes changed significantly.

I don't play many open notes, so I don't know if it was a good investment. But that's my 2p worth.

I'm also curious how one can pick up to identical Fender USA standard P's and they do sound different. So maybe there is a variation in the windings of the pups? I doubt that. In these days of pups being machine wound in mass production factories. So it has to be down to the quality of the plyboard/alder etc used in the plank?
[/quote]

Again, I think almost all of it is in your mind. I think pickups can vary massively in the way they are wound, as well as the wiring, pots and so on.

[lowhand_mike]

protein, oils and fibre

Edited April 28, 2015 by lowhand_mike

[Der JD]

I've done plenty of pickup experimentation with both guitars and basses. If you take 2 pickups, same brand and model, machine-wound, and think you can hear a difference between them then wow, you've got some really good ears.

Even with 2 pickups of a different brand and model, assuming same size/type (e.g. standard J pickup true single coil), I find there's just subtle differences in the overall tone. Now, if you change the type (soapbar quad-coil vs. J single coil), sure, there will be a noticeable difference. If you change the PU placement the differences will be even more apparent.

Same thing with electronics. If you simply change the wiring/brand of pots good luck hearing much of a difference. Change the pot values, a little more difference. Change how it's wired (e.g. parallel vs. series), a little more. For active basses- change the preamp (e.g. Aguilar to Glock), even more difference.

Woods matter. The construction matters. Pickups and electronics matter. All of it does. The tone of the bass is the sum of all its parts. As mentioned before, you're not going to get Fodera tone by sticking Fodera PUs/preamp in just anything. If so, everyone would be doing it.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1430230498' post='2759223']
Again, I think almost all of it is in your mind. I think pickups can vary massively in the way they are wound, as well as the wiring, pots and so on.
[/quote]

Be dead easy to test.

Get two (or even better, 3 or 4) 99% identical instruments, say alder body and ash and then run the signal into a 'scope. Ideally with a mechanical device picking the strings for uniformity.

Use the exact same set of pickups and compare the 'scope trace.

Then for control do the same with a contact mic attached to the bodies - not using the pickups. Do that with plucking the strings and with an impact / tuning fork test.

If there is a difference on the 'scope then there is a difference. Whether that difference is actually enough to be detected by the human ear will also be answered by the 'scope readings.


While you do that I'll nip into Sheehans lovely acoustic emporium and play a Taylor made of mahogany and then one made out of spruce and be completely not surprised by the obvious tonal difference.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1430228726' post='2759193']
I've got an old Wilson guitar with the 'zero fret' and I've always thought "what a good idea" no more fannying around cutting the nut to exactley the right depth, I've often wondered why it's not more widely used.
[/quote]

Both my Marleaux and my Sandberg have Zero frets.

It's a brilliant idea. And at re-fret time it's only 1 more fret.

[throwoff]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1430238338' post='2759379']
Be dead easy to test.

Get two (or even better, 3 or 4) 99% identical instruments, say alder body and ash and then run the signal into a 'scope. Ideally with a mechanical device picking the strings for uniformity.

Use the exact same set of pickups and compare the 'scope trace.

Then for control do the same with a contact mic attached to the bodies - not using the pickups. Do that with plucking the strings and with an impact / tuning fork test.

If there is a difference on the 'scope then there is a difference. Whether that difference is actually enough to be detected by the human ear will also be answered by the 'scope readings.


While you do that I'll nip into Sheehans lovely acoustic emporium and play a Taylor made of mahogany and then one made out of spruce and be completely not surprised by the obvious tonal difference.
[/quote]

Acoustics are a different kettle of fish completely. The instrument is designed to self amplify and as such the wood construction alters the tone.

On electrics it really doesn't.

I am sure somebody did your test a few years back where they stuck a Pre CBS set of Fender pups in a guitar and on a plank of wood and found no audible difference in the spectrum.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1430227903' post='2759180']
I've had a pair of otherwise identical instruments with some wood differences and there was a clear difference.
[/quote]

Yep! I have two Peavey Zodiacs.. one is the DE model, the other is a BXP.. I thought they were identical until I put Entwistle neo pickups in both (and the same strings, Elixir stainless). They are noticeably different! The white one sounds more aggressive in the upper mids and the black one sounds "cleaner", more solid. The difference is even bigger once you apply some overdrive. Since the body woods are both painted and glossed the only thing I can think of as being different is the wood underneath!

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1430259948' post='2759696']


Yep! I have two Peavey Zodiacs.. one is the DE model, the other is a BXP.. I thought they were identical until I put Entwistle neo pickups in both (and the same strings, Elixir stainless). They are noticeably different! The white one sounds more aggressive in the upper mids and the black one sounds "cleaner", more solid. The difference is even bigger once you apply some overdrive. Since the body woods are both painted and glossed the only thing I can think of as being different is the wood underneath!
[/quote]

I scientifically conclude that black basses sound cleaner than white ones. Fact. No exceptions.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Roland Rock

[fretmeister]

[quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1430258266' post='2759677']
Acoustics are a different kettle of fish completely. The instrument is designed to self amplify and as such the wood construction alters the tone.

On electrics it really doesn't.

I am sure somebody did your test a few years back where they stuck a Pre CBS set of Fender pups in a guitar and on a plank of wood and found no audible difference in the spectrum.
[/quote]


So to clarify your position - the wood makes a difference, but the pickups are not very efficient at allowing that difference through to the amp.

I fully agree that a pickup change can be one of the most dramatic changes in tone. Round strings to flats is another.

But that doesn't mean wood differences aren't there, it's just that the differences are of a smaller magnitude. Those differences are even less noticeable (even pickups and strings) if an amp has such a powerful overbearing voice, like an SVT at full tilt.

If anything that is a failure of the pickup system - failing to fully realise the tonal quality of a particular wood choice.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1430259948' post='2759696']
Yep! I have two Peavey Zodiacs.. one is the DE model, the other is a BXP.. I thought they were identical until I put Entwistle neo pickups in both (and the same strings, Elixir stainless). They are noticeably different! The white one sounds more aggressive in the upper mids and the black one sounds "cleaner", more solid. The difference is even bigger once you apply some overdrive. Since the body woods are both painted and glossed the only thing I can think of as being different is the wood underneath!
[/quote]

Are you sure that it's the wood that is making the difference. Have you tried swapping the pickups between the two instruments? That's the only way to be sure.

[PlungerModerno]

Well, as has been mentioned, as I understand it the nut material (density and hardness) will affect the timbre and sustain of open notes. It'll be fairly subtle, and have no effect if there's a zero fret.

when it comes to setup, depending on the pickup design, 0.5 mm or more of an adjustment to the pickup distance to the strings (either through pickup height adjustment or bridge saddle adjustment) can noticeably alter the tone. All pickups, machine wound or hand wound are the sum of quite a few tolerances. The wire may be almost exactly the same diameter, the magnets may be almost exactly the same strength. the winds may be almost the same, but the end product is never 100% consistent - just as potentiometers are not always 250K (more like 235 - 265K) - pickups will vary in impedance and frequency response between supposedly similar pickups.

With the known complexity of the system . . . I can't say for certain where nut material figures in, and how much, as far as tone is concerned.
As I see it, about 50% of it is your hands (how you play it), 25% is the pickups and preamp, 24% is the strings, and 1% is a mix of hardware, shielding, nut, frets (or fingerboard), and unknown factors.
Wood may do something, but I can't hear it.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1430306245' post='2760012']
Are you sure that it's the wood that is making the difference. Have you tried swapping the pickups between the two instruments? That's the only way to be sure.
[/quote]

Oh bloody hell

It's a good point but we all know how notorious Peavey are for changing product specs!

[Der JD]

I have tried swapping pickups between instruments, and I'm not talking about just the same brand/model, I mean THE exact same pickups.

Same pickups in 2 instruments that are nearly identical in terms of woods, construction, etc.= nearly the same tone.

Same pickups in 2 instruments that differ in terms of woods, construction, etc. = massively different tone

Pickups are basically like microphones. If I take 2 different mics and I speak into them and another person speaks into them, we'll still know who is who regardless of what mic is being used. The mic might have subtle EQ characteristics that influence the overall sound of our voices but the point is that the instrument itself (woods, hardware, construction, etc.) is like our voices. The pickup just "mics" the "voice" of the instrument.

[yorks5stringer]

Getting back to Nuts (!), I'll tell my often-told story of when I made my Bass with Jon Shuker.

I asked him what were we doing about the nut and he asked me to grab the bone off the floor in his workshop that his dog (Ruby) was eating (a Doberman as I recall but very gentle). As it was not well chewed he selected an area that was smooth and told me to take it to the band saw and cut off an area 2-3" long and maybe 1/2" thick. I then cut, shaped and smoothed it into the Nut on my Bass which is sat next to me now. The rest, as they say, is history

The postscript is when I went to work as an intern for another Luthier for 3 years he was using bought in plastic nuts. I nipped to Wilkos, bought some bones and showed him how to make them from bone. He reckoned from a £1 bone he could get 4 or 5 nuts out of it...

Edited April 30, 2015 by yorks5stringer