TC Group bought by Behringer (including TC Electronic)

[72deluxe]

Interesting stats for the iNuke, thanks! Power ratings for amplifiers are "interesting" anyway, as some RMS ratings do not actually mean "all day long", they mean RMS "for a really short time depending on the input frequency before the rails collapse", which is not RMS. So it's a daft numbers game with amplifiers. Look at how LAB measure their power ratings for their PLM and you'll be scratching your head.

I only meant the differences between Lab.Gruppen and the Behringer amps is significant - if you take the lid off a PLM2000 (20kW amp?) you'll realise there is zero space mainly due to all the capacitors and copper heatsinks required for getting heat out. They do clever things with their power rail too (but it collapses for high frequencies) - they have a patent on this rail design so it would be interesting to see if it gets incorporated into Behringer's products...
You'll struggle to find a photo of inside a PLM2000 but I have one I took somewhere - I'll see if I can find it.

Observe the capacitor banks in this (iNuke): [url="http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/attachments/subwoofer-amps-high-pass-filters/33534d1321577980-behringer-inuke-nu1000-amp-amplifier-fan-swap-how-w-pics-2011-11-17_17-25-22_855xxxx.jpg"]http://www.hometheat...-22_855xxxx.jpg[/url]
It won't kick out much power for long with that lack of storage, surely? If it's putting out bass for extended frequencies, they'll get depleted and then it's down to the power supply to cope. Compare that even to a Powersoft amp and observe Powersoft's neat arrangement of many capacitor banks: [url="http://www.zaj.hu/keptar/large/dsc02852.jpg"]http://www.zaj.hu/ke...ge/dsc02852.jpg[/url]

That's the only observation I had on it really, that the market placements between the brands is [u]significantly[/u] different. Behringer do make some alright stuff and for the home musician and semipro it is great, you really couldn't even build something yourself that cheap. (I couldn't - can't even solder competently). But bass amplifiers for us bassists are not really amplifiers for sound reinforcement or live sound - it's just a different market segment. You won't see them getting used for festivals or gigs etc., they'll all be d&b amps, Powersoft, Crown, Lab.Gruppen etc. etc.

I wonder if it would likely be safer just to keep the different corporations separate and let them continue as is instead of taking the highend technology and putting it into the lower end products - if they do, why would you want to spend significantly more buying the high-end product? It would be devalued. Fiat technically own Ferrari but if they start releasing Fiat's with Ferrari badges on, nobody would believe that this new "Ferrari" was a Ferrari - it's just rebranded Fiat. They've kept the two brands separate and each maintains its own value. You don't buy a Fiat and believe you're getting a Ferrari.
If they do otherwise, it'd be a bit like the Porsche 914 and the VW equivalent - the Porsche sold poorly because everybody said "It' a VW...." and ordinary VW buyers would not be tempted, as they'd say "It's not a REAL Porsche...."

The Chinese workforce changes every 6 months but that's apparently normal practice. I have a set of Behringer Truth 2031A (massive and strong, you could support your car on them, one amplifier keeps turning itself off though sadly) and they came with calibration certificates. But the test for speakers within the factory is to put a voltage across the terminals and see if the speaker makes a BOOOOOOOOOP sound. That's the test for QC and calibration haha

Different market segments, that's all. Let's see if they keep them separate.

EDIT: I just wanted to say that I'm not trying to put Behringer down at all - I have stuff by them and some of it is great. I was mainly making the point that the two segments of the market are far apart, and should probably remain that way to keep all brands strong.

Edited May 1, 2015 by 72deluxe

[tauzero]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1430475095' post='2761731']
Interesting stats for the iNuke, thanks! Power ratings for amplifiers are "interesting" anyway, as some RMS ratings do not actually mean "all day long", they mean RMS "for a really short time depending on the input frequency before the rails collapse", which is not RMS. So it's a daft numbers game with amplifiers. Look at how LAB measure their power ratings for their PLM and you'll be scratching your head.
[/quote]

Right, got it. But check what they did on the bench test - running for a minute at full tilt. Wouldn't a supply rail start to dip after seconds if it was running far beyond its means? One minute of transient would be a bit non-real-world.

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1430475095' post='2761731']
I only meant the differences between Lab.Gruppen and the Behringer amps is significant - if you take the lid off a PLM2000 (20kW amp?) you'll realise there is zero space mainly due to all the capacitors and copper heatsinks required for getting heat out. They do clever things with their power rail too (but it collapses for high frequencies) - they have a patent on this rail design so it would be interesting to see if it gets incorporated into Behringer's products...
You'll struggle to find a photo of inside a PLM2000 but I have one I took somewhere - I'll see if I can find it.

Observe the capacitor banks in this (iNuke): [url="http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/attachments/subwoofer-amps-high-pass-filters/33534d1321577980-behringer-inuke-nu1000-amp-amplifier-fan-swap-how-w-pics-2011-11-17_17-25-22_855xxxx.jpg"]http://www.hometheat...-22_855xxxx.jpg[/url]
It won't kick out much power for long with that lack of storage, surely? If it's putting out bass for extended frequencies, they'll get depleted and then it's down to the power supply to cope. Compare that even to a Powersoft amp and observe Powersoft's neat arrangement of many capacitor banks: [url="http://www.zaj.hu/keptar/large/dsc02852.jpg"]http://www.zaj.hu/ke...ge/dsc02852.jpg[/url]
[/quote]

There's certainly a lot of capacitors in that. But where do they make the difference in rail (as opposed to smoothing) terms? Is it about sustaining a power supply rail at close to the P-P voltage of the transformer rather than at the RMS level? I ask out of genuine ignorance.

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1430475095' post='2761731']
That's the only observation I had on it really, that the market placements between the brands is [u]significantly[/u] different. Behringer do make some alright stuff and for the home musician and semipro it is great, you really couldn't even build something yourself that cheap. (I couldn't - can't even solder competently). But bass amplifiers for us bassists are not really amplifiers for sound reinforcement or live sound - it's just a different market segment. You won't see them getting used for festivals or gigs etc., they'll all be d&b amps, Powersoft, Crown, Lab.Gruppen etc. etc.

I wonder if it would likely be safer just to keep the different corporations separate and let them continue as is instead of taking the highend technology and putting it into the lower end products - if they do, why would you want to spend significantly more buying the high-end product? It would be devalued. Fiat technically own Ferrari but if they start releasing Fiat's with Ferrari badges on, nobody would believe that this new "Ferrari" was a Ferrari - it's just rebranded Fiat. They've kept the two brands separate and each maintains its own value. You don't buy a Fiat and believe you're getting a Ferrari.
If they do otherwise, it'd be a bit like the Porsche 914 and the VW equivalent - the Porsche sold poorly because everybody said "It' a VW...." and ordinary VW buyers would not be tempted, as they'd say "It's not a REAL Porsche...."

The Chinese workforce changes every 6 months but that's apparently normal practice. I have a set of Behringer Truth 2031A (massive and strong, you could support your car on them, one amplifier keeps turning itself off though sadly) and they came with calibration certificates. But the test for speakers within the factory is to put a voltage across the terminals and see if the speaker makes a BOOOOOOOOOP sound. That's the test for QC and calibration haha

Different market segments, that's all. Let's see if they keep them separate.
[/quote]

I suspect they'll have a look at the features of everything they now own to see if there's anything they can incorporate at lower cost into their more budget range, and hopefully keep the prestige brands as they are. After all, names and reputations are valuable.

[discreet]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1430475095' post='2761731']
Observe the capacitor banks in this (iNuke): [url="http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/attachments/subwoofer-amps-high-pass-filters/33534d1321577980-behringer-inuke-nu1000-amp-amplifier-fan-swap-how-w-pics-2011-11-17_17-25-22_855xxxx.jpg"]http://www.hometheat...-22_855xxxx.jpg[/url]
It won't kick out much power for long with that lack of storage, surely? If it's putting out bass for extended frequencies, they'll get depleted and then it's down to the power supply to cope. Compare that even to a Powersoft amp and observe Powersoft's neat arrangement of many capacitor banks: [url="http://www.zaj.hu/keptar/large/dsc02852.jpg"]http://www.zaj.hu/ke...ge/dsc02852.jpg[/url]
[/quote]

Quite a remarkable difference between those two pics. I'm not technical in any way so don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that component difference could also represent the difference in price between those two products? You get the impression the iNUKE would run OK, but at the same level of output the PowerSoft amp would be far less stressed. something like that?

[Skybone]

I thought that TC Electronic were owned by Gibson, obviously not anymore...

[72deluxe]

One minute of transient is how they test them for ratings really - they shove sine waves into them, which really is entirely a non-real-world test. Unless Pink Floyd are playing or something..... sine waves everywhere??? A proper test would be to run them for about 3 hours and see how they get on (as they'll warm up, fans will need to spin up, ambient temperature changes, chokes get hot etc.). After all, a real-world gig has to last for hours and hours and it'll be under load during that time. As you say though, the transients are transient. Bass drums and low end thumps require a lot of power but if you're feeding a line-array of speakers and driving subs on another channel of the amp, you need to be able to cope and not have the line array dipping in volume when the subs are driving. That's why you probably won't see iNukes being used in big venues. But for the money, happy days!

My ignorance of amplifiers is higher than yours. I only know that big gulps of power (ie, bass drums, thumps, low bass notes) require capacitor banks to provide power to drive the speakers. The capacitors need topping up, which will stress the power supply and take time to recharge (although not much, depends on the PSU). So the more capacitors you have the more power you have on instant demand and the more power you can instantly provide before requiring a top-up. Therefore, more capacitors = more instant power = better. If you can't keep up with the gulps being taken, then output power will suffer as you attempt to recharge the capacitors whilst they're being gulped from.
EDIT: Someone with more knowledge, please feel free to correct me!

The price difference for the Behringer products is due to the difference in the number of components, as well as the difference in quality of the components. If the aim was to sell many products, then cheaper components don't matter that much but if the aim was to sound the best you possibly can, box-shifting isn't the target. I think LAB are not interested in box-shifting.

It would be good if the great technology made its way down to us paupers so we can buy incredible products at knock-down price, but I wonder if it'll go the other way - the higher end products will be modified to use cheaper products for better profit margin. I think this is what they did with the faders on Midas consoles, which is why the faders are repeatedly highlighted as being really really really reliable on the M32 page (to instil confidence - "we've redesigned it using cheaper components, but it's just as good! Honest!"). Let's hope the floating rail of LAB makes it into the iNuke PLM3000 Pro DSP.... :-)

I think a concern for moving all production to China is the scope for clones. I worked at a company where they copied a product (excellently, I might add), including the box the item came in! Internally, it was different and used cheaper components, but to the consumer it would be the same, and to the dodgy salesman, he could get a bigger markup for a cheaper product as he would sell it for the original price. Or slightly less than the official distributors, meaning the distributors lost out. I am sure the distributors of TC, Tannoy and LAB are sweating conkers at the moment, fearing loss of income if production is moved.

It looks like the audio industry is now made of megagroups - Music Group, Fender, Gibson, Yamaha. All massive.

Edited May 1, 2015 by 72deluxe

[Matt P]

i'll chip in properly in a week or so, I have one of the iNuke 3000 amps for our PA, it's to run the mains so we only really need about 400W per side into 4ohms, I've not had a chance to properly try it out so I'll report back after the gig, our desk is also Behringer, and I've used some of the other gear too, for the cost I've generally been pretty impressed with the results.

Matt

[discreet]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1430477696' post='2761770']
...sweating conkers at the moment...
[/quote]

It's inevitable as the weather gets warmer.

[72deluxe]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1430479597' post='2761801']
It's inevitable as the weather gets warmer.
[/quote]

I said "sweatING" not "sweatY"......

I didn't say "I bet they've got sweaty conkers" hahaha

[Jimryan]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1430404759' post='2761089']
Aren't the TC Toneprint Amps/combos made in China anyway?
[/quote]

Close, Thailand according to my most recent invoice from them.

I've used and love my TC gear. Years ago at school I had a behringer combo and can't fault it (well, except the weight). As long as the TC Electronic gear isn't changed (or the terms of my endorsement) then I'm happy.

[EBS_freak]

Midas M32 <> Behringer X32.

[discreet]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1430479703' post='2761803']
I didn't say "I bet they've got sweaty conkers"...
[/quote]

Yes! Yes you did, just then! Thp!

[dincz]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1430472787' post='2761698']
So the Behringer iNUKE NU3000 power amp in reality provides only 1500W RMS @ 4ohms? Feeble!
[/quote]

It certainly won't do 3000W continuously. I seem to remember that Behringer measure maximum power using a 20mS burst - not very meaningful for bass.

[discreet]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1430512650' post='2762283']
It certainly won't do 3000W continuously. I seem to remember that Behringer measure maximum power using a 20mS burst - not very meaningful for bass.
[/quote]

I'm sure it wouldn't do 1500W continuously. Luckily we don't play constantly at full volume... well I don't, anyway.

[Monckyman]

The Behringer x-air range is about to be solidly thumped by the Soundcraft Ui range,sonically and financially.
Got mine waiting to be picked up. Will report later!

[tauzero]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1430512650' post='2762283']
It certainly won't do 3000W continuously. I seem to remember that Behringer measure maximum power using a 20mS burst - not very meaningful for bass.
[/quote]

But according to the links I posted above, it'll deliver it (the specified power level) for at least a minute. Good job no-one just parrots stuff they vaguely remember hearing, isn't it, otherwise companies could finish up with far worse reputations than they deserve.

[dincz]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1430527762' post='2762404']
But according to the links I posted above, it'll deliver it (the specified power level) for at least a minute. Good job no-one just parrots stuff they vaguely remember hearing, isn't it, otherwise companies could finish up with far worse reputations than they deserve.
[/quote]

Even Behringer don't caim a continuous rating of 3000W. Their power amp specs usually list maximum power and RMS power separately. It may well deliver its specified RMS power for at least a minute. The 20mS burst figure came from Uli Behringer himself. I don't have links at hand, but my memory of this is better than vague.

In any case, neither maximum nor RMS is defined in Behringer specs.

An independent review by Gear4Music said:

"Initial measurements were made using 20 millisecond bursts at 1 kHz into 8 Ohm, which produced a peak effective voltage of 61 V – corresponding to an output power of 2 x 465 Watt (not accounting for THD & noise). With a 4 Ohm load the iNUKE NU3000DSP delivered a healthy 59 V which converts to 870 Watt per channel. With a 2 Ohm load, the “emergency brake” cuts in after 3 seconds, and the reduction from the initial 2 x1700 Watt to a less brutal 2 x 900 Watt is quite noticeable."

I don't know how I gave the impression I was bashing Behringer. In fact nothing could be further from the truth and I've often defended them against uninformed and unwarranted criticism - on other forums and on BC (see post #15 in this thread for example).

I've owned several of their products, including an EPQ900 power amp, but I didn't buy it expecting 900W continuous power - and once again, even Behringer don't claim that.

[dincz]

A bit of a rant on power ratings:

[color=#141414][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]A long time ago when the earth was dark and a watt was a watt, you could safely assume that an amplifier's power rating was based on the product of RMS voltage and RMS current at the specified distortion figure (somewhere around the onset of clipping) with a sine wave and could be maintained continuously for a period limited mainly by thermal considerations. With few exceptions, they could meet spec on a bench test.[/font][/color]

[color=#141414][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]Admittedly, that kind of test doesn't reflect real world applications but it does give a basis for comparison. Now we have "peak" ratings which is sometimes taken to mean short burst (how short?) or "program" capability and sometimes the product of peak voltage and peak current. And "RMS" power which could be burst or continuous but was commonly taken to imply continuous.[/font][/color]

[color=#141414][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]On the bright side, at least the pro audio and MI worlds have been spared the insult to intelligence of "PMPO" and similar nonsense.[/font][/color]

[color=#141414][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]Most manufacturers don't state the measurement methods or conditions and consumers are left with no basis for comparison.[/font][/color]

Edited May 2, 2015 by dincz

[Ben Jamin]

Well the X32 is a great bit of kit anyway. We have the rack version and run it with an iPad via wi-fi, so you can essentially use it as a stagebox and mix anywhere you want in the room/on-stage which is great for smaller gigs/portable PAs.
You get all the functions of a digital desk you could ask for. And it has never skipped a beat.

However people are now very skeptical of MIDAS gear. I've never used MIDAS but as a top-end company when they're making a 'MIDAS version' of a Behringer product it doesn't give you a lot of confidence. The key thing is you don't buy MIDAS for budget or even value per se but you buy for quality.

I guess it's kind of like Fodera making an expensive version of a P-bass. Pick-up, volume, tone. I mean I'm sure it'd be great but that's not why you buy a Fodera? Or a P-bass, for that matter.

In the end it's just reputation. If a product's great people should buy it.

[Ben Jamin]

Double post sorry!

Edited May 2, 2015 by Ben Jamin

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1430518997' post='2762351']
The Behringer x-air range is about to be solidly thumped by the Soundcraft Ui range,sonically and financially.
Got mine waiting to be picked up. Will report later!
[/quote]

Its roots of the UI were in the SM Pro uMix (SM Pro were bought out - probably because Soundcraft needed a competing rack mixer quick!!) so I'm sceptical as to how much Soundcraft is actually in there...

Edited May 3, 2015 by EBS_freak

[Lord Sausage]

I thought the wattage as irrelevant to power/volume. That's what the experts in the amp section say anyway. I am a bit thick when it comes to these things. Anyway, has anyone got that 99 quid amp. I'm tempted cos it's 99 quid.

[dincz]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1430721572' post='2763886']
I thought the wattage as irrelevant to power/volume.[/quote]

Irrelevant is a bit strong. If it really was irrelevant then we could all use 1 watt amps It's one of several factors.

Edited May 4, 2015 by dincz

[dudewheresmybass]

[quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1430558879' post='2762541']

I guess it's kind of like Fodera making an expensive version of a P-bass. Pick-up, volume, tone. I mean I'm sure it'd be great but that's not why you buy a Fodera? Or a P-bass, for that matter.

[/quote]

Many many boutique makers have been doing this with the jazz bass for a long time. In their case everyone applauds the instrument, rather than looking too closely at the copying aspect.
Is the question here more about the pricing? Copying at a cheaper retail makes it a bad thing, whereas copying at a higher price makes it better?

[molan]

Maybe Behringer bought TC so they could start using their power rating methods as they quote even higher differentials. . .


Sorry, couldn't resist

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1430732996' post='2764033']
Maybe Behringer bought TC so they could start using their power rating methods as they quote even higher differentials. . .


Sorry, couldn't resist
[/quote]

Think of a number and double it?