ubit Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1430778283' post='2764563'] How does this sound? [media]http://youtu.be/Adh5aKRrsmw[/media] [/quote] Dreadful! Sorry, to me that sounds mince! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedmanzie Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Cloth eared so called amateurs ? Edited May 5, 2015 by tedmanzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanx Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Isn't it just a polite way of saying "You're playing out of time"? Like the way I sing "Just off pitch".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='urbanx' timestamp='1430817409' post='2764743'] Isn't it just a polite way of saying "You're playing out of time"? Like the way I sing "Just off pitch".... [/quote] Not even slightly. It's a conscious stylistic choice, that can often improve the groove depending on the where and when it is applied. If you've not looked at this before, then go and read up on the pocket. That is what pushed, pulled, and on refers to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 Yes it's a choice. If you want to sound like you've picked up the instrument for the first time! I think in a studio where you can alter the attack of notes, you could minutely bring the note forward or back, but to consciously play ahead or behind will make it sound out of time. Every example I've heard either sound right on the beat or so far out that it's laughable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) [quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430818939' post='2764766'] Yes it's a choice. If you want to sound like you've picked up the instrument for the first time! I think in a studio where you can alter the attack of notes, you could minutely bring the note forward or back, but to consciously play ahead or behind will make it sound out of time. Every example I've heard either sound right on the beat or so far out that it's laughable! [/quote] Think of the beat as a hole where you play a note. That hole is fairy big in terms of time on a millisecond scale. Think of the note you play as a snooker ball. The ball can drop into that pocket a number of ways, from slightly to the left, through dead centre to slightly to the right. All of these are 'in time' to our ears because our brain pulls them into where they should be. If the ball is too far left or too far right, it misses the pocket. Our brain can't pull that in and flags up as 'wrong'. However. If you fire enough balls in, one after the other in a regular pattern, you start to get a feel for where the balls are going. They're all 'in time' but have a different feel and give a different sense to the player. If you're playing behind the beat, your brain will want to push the bass forward and it'll feel lazy, if you play in front of the beat the brain will want to put the brakes on and it'll feel pushy or fast. That has nothing to do with tempo slow or fast and everything to do with how the musicians are playing. . Edited May 5, 2015 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Accepting that playing around the beat isn't 'pretentious sh*te', and it's a real thing that people (consciously) do. Ubit - ultimately if what sounds 'right' to many, sounds 'bad' to you, this debate might never end [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1430819632' post='2764770'] That hole is fairy big in terms of time on a millisecond scale. [/quote] I'm going to treasure that sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1430820626' post='2764784'] I'm going to treasure that sentence. [/quote] If you work with Digital Audio Workstations, there's lots of talk about getting the Latency down. That's the difference between when you play a note, when it's recorded and when you hear it fed back to you from the workstation along with the guide track. In some cases (particularly vocalists and guitarists) it can be pretty big before the musician has a problem with it. In other cases (particularly drummers and bass players) it gets noticed a lot sooner and causes a lot of problems. Particularly because of what we are talking about here. Edited May 5, 2015 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 So where do the fairies come in exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430816632' post='2764734'] Dreadful! Sorry, to me that sounds mince! [/quote] Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1430820982' post='2764791'] So where do the fairies come in exactly? [/quote] Just after the bass in the fourth bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r16ktx Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='Drax' timestamp='1430820464' post='2764781'] Ubit - ultimately if what sounds 'right' to many, sounds 'bad' to you, this debate might never end [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color] [/quote] So at what point does playing before the beat change from feel to anticipation? ;-) probably about where the fairy hole is... :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weststarx Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I'm with Ubit, I think all this 'before and after the beat' sounds like a load of crap. The drummer sets the rhythm and you play in time with the drummer - what else do you need to worry about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I'm not convinced to be honest... Happy to accept others can hear things I can't though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weststarx Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Or is it a way of explaining whether a bassist really drives a song forward or whether they sit back and let someone else do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1430827611' post='2764901'] Or is it a way of explaining whether a bassist really drives a song forward or whether they sit back and let someone else do it? [/quote] Yes. You can call it drive. Sometimes it's the drummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 In the posted example where the drummer moves ahead of or behind the beat, it just sounds to me like he's realised they're playing too slow or too fast and he's trying to alter the tempo, and because they're prerecorded loops they're not paying any attention to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 What experiences do people have of Polyrhythms? Polyrhythms help to explain the pocket as well as anything in my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I think in the drummer example it is exaggerated slightly so you can hear it rather than just feel it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1430828847' post='2764930'] I think in the drummer example it is exaggerated slightly so you can hear it rather than just feel it [/quote] I think there's a point beyond which it starts to sound crap, and we all have different places where that point lies. For my taste, the D'Angelo clip earlier in the thread sounds a bit too behind, but I can still appreciate what they're doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 None of the clips which are deliberate examples of playing behind the beat sound very good IMO, yet I love things like the Meters track posted above which are said to be behind the beat. Could this be because the ones set up as examples are moving the whole pattern behind the beat by the same amount, rather than playing with the position of individual notes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weststarx Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I'm so confused... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1430832931' post='2764982'] I'm so confused... [/quote] Me too mate, as stated before I'm kind of thinking emperors new clothes here. None of the clips that are said to be behind or ahead sound completely in time to me apart from the ones that are obvious in which case, they sound out of time ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Those blue notes- just out of tune.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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