Pretentious so called professionals

[Zenitram]

Yeah, I remember siting in the pit for a musical and watching the conductor's baton/hand/arms, and how the different instruments responded to them. Visually, it was utter chaos. I couldn't make head or tail of it, or work out when anyone was supposed to be coming in. Yet they were all in perfect sync, and sounded wonderful.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1430583726' post='2762884']
If you have an ahead guy and a behind guy, then someone is going to have to massively compensate
and the chances are the rhythm section will sound awful... so they aren't a match you'd pick.
[/quote]
It Mick Fleetwood's autobiography, in relation to him and John Mcvie he talks about how one plays in front and the other plays behind the beat.

Guess it worked for them!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1430588358' post='2762941']
It Mick Fleetwood's autobiography, in relation to him and John Mcvie he talks about how one plays in front and the other plays behind the beat.

Guess it worked for them!
[/quote]

Yes, but not to my ears...never liked the pair in isolation.

[scalpy]

I'd rather listen to a pro describing how their music works than a weekend warrior saying they need this bass or that bass for their sound! It seems crazy that most people will read for hours on what gear to use but then just go, oh the music bit, when I'm playing, that's just me. Nuts. I was watching a questlove video the other day and he explains how he has had to learn how to play behind himself to do the d'angelo records. Software companies have spent a fortune developing quantising grids, or top producers spend ages shuffling waveforms around to get the music happening- quantifying rhythm is what we should be talking about on musician forums, not so much 'I use these strings to play the dog and duck!'

Sorry, ranting.....

[redstriper]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1430593098' post='2762994']
quantifying rhythm is what we should be talking about on musician forums, not so much 'I use these strings to play the dog and duck!'
[/quote]

great - start a thread and let's talk

[Drax]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1430593098' post='2762994']
I'd rather listen to a pro describing how their music works than a weekend warrior saying they need this bass or that bass for their sound! It seems crazy that most people will read for hours on what gear to use but then just go, oh the music bit, when I'm playing, that's just me. Nuts. I was watching a questlove video the other day and he explains how he has had to learn how to play behind himself to do the d'angelo records. Software companies have spent a fortune developing quantising grids, or top producers spend ages shuffling waveforms around to get the music happening- quantifying rhythm is what we should be talking about on musician forums, not so much 'I use these strings to play the dog and duck!'

Sorry, ranting.....
[/quote]

It's a fair point. Slightly depressing how little content there is on the Technique threads given 30k members

(he says not actually contributing much to said threads)

Edited May 2, 2015 by Drax

[fretmeister]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1430587214' post='2762923']
Good job no one here is playing in an orchestra. The conductor is - by design - usually a half-beat or a beat ahead of the orchestra, while some instruments (bowed basses) open their note even a little bit ahead of the other players to allow for their instrument's attack.

In any case, playing ahead of or behind the beat is a legitimate and widely recognised musical practice.
[/quote]

Best me to it.

Had a top orchestra rehearsal this morning when the subject came up (again) for the over enthusiastic 'bone players!

[scalpy]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1430594857' post='2763014']


great - start a thread and let's talk
[/quote]

There was a thread on here not so long ago asking, 'what is feel?' Or groove or something. Might be worth dragging up.

For what it's worth, any studio work I have done has been dominated by pros talking about the rhythmic approach. I sometimes get work with a small production team that has some real, genuine full time pros where we back singer songwriter types who want a fuller sound. Top of the menu for each song, regardless of the tastes of the client and demands of the producer is the tempo and feel of the track. Once we think we've got the master take the first thing we check is whether or not we've played ahead, on or behind the beat.

How's that for starters?!?!

[ezbass]

I was in a blues band years ago where I would consciously try and play behind the beat on one particular tune to give it a more relaxed and lazy feel (dirty, if you will), as playing on top of the beat made it seem to rush and feel more 'jazzy', which wasn't right for that tune.

Tony Levin talks about the beat, and its placement, in a chapter of his book 'Beyond The Bass Clef' with regard to jazz, pop and classical music. A great read, full of info, anecdotes, laughs and recipes!

[redstriper]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1430597327' post='2763036']
How's that for starters?!?!
[/quote]

Great

[scalpy]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXJ-3dAMH8

Try this!

[spectoremg]

[quote name='booboo' timestamp='1430581565' post='2762849']
If you want to get a handle on playing behind the beat play with a drummer that rushes all the time or speeds up when they do a fill - there's quite a few of the ***** about!
[/quote]

[scalpy]

Drummers rushing fills is getting ahead of the beat true, but that's playing out of time. Most bands speed up or down (if they're off click) and that's fine too but playing ahead of the beat etc is how the note placement of the individuals binds to create the overall effect. The silly thing is, if we were cooks/chefs the interaction of the ingredients wouldn't be a pretentious subject at all!

I heard this clip on NoTreble and was surprised at just how far ahead the bass gets, especially for someone who is considered funky, normally associated with being behind.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NaLBZD5Gbqk

[Drax]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1430642869' post='2763213']

I heard this clip on NoTreble and was surprised at just how far ahead the bass gets, especially for someone who is considered funky, normally associated with being behind.

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NaLBZD5Gbqk"]http://m.youtube.com...h?v=NaLBZD5Gbqk[/url]
[/quote]

Could it be the placement of the recorded bass part has been pulled forward intentionally to give it a bit more pace?

Assuming it's legit - always reassuring in those isolated recordings to hear the few missed notes.

[scalpy]

I know what you mean, assuming it's legit. That record is 91/92 or thereabouts though, so if it's real the chances of it being pulled forward is unlikely. The little fluffs here and there are interesting and just reinforces my belief that audiences are interested in character and drama in their music more than the invention or technical facility of the participants.

[ezbass]

Flea appears to be hitting the 'and' of the 'and, one' in order to give an upbeat, energetic feel (consciously or unconsciously), very like Kiedis' vocal delivery.

[Drax]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1430647154' post='2763262']
The little fluffs here and there are interesting and just reinforces my belief that audiences are interested in character and drama in their music more than the invention or technical facility of the participants.
[/quote]

Totally agree. It's where the casting vote of great producers like Rick Rubin comes in.

It's such a fine line between stupid and clever

[molan]

I'll often play both behind and ahead of the beat, as well as on it of course. For me it feels like I'm either leaning back against the beat or leaning forward into it.

I'd say I do more of the former than the latter and really like how it changes the feel of a song. My drummer can play like a metronome so that really helps. Every now and then our rhythm guitarist will spot it and it can confuse his timing so the drummer and I will work on it with him.

I haven't read the article you've mentioned in the original post but are they professional musicians? I don't understand the 'so called' reference?

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1430580829' post='2762834']
This may help?

[media]http://youtu.be/GlcSuJlOwJ0[/media]
[/quote]

Hmmmm ... helpful if you're a drummer, I'd guess.

I found myself automatically listening to the bass player.

[chris_b]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1430642869' post='2763213']
The silly thing is, if we were cooks/chefs the interaction of the ingredients wouldn't be a pretentious subject at all!
[/quote]

+1

This is a recognised playing technique in many styles of music so it isn't "pretentious" to discuss at all. As most of us have proved in the last 40+ posts.

[discreet]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1430650966' post='2763328']
Hmmmm ... helpful if you're a drummer, I'd guess.
[/quote]

What, this [i]isn't [/i]a drum forum?? Then why are there so many drummers on here??

I posted that vid purely because I thought the concept may be easier to grasp for the uninitiated if a more visual approach was employed. And if that's not a pretentious sentence then I don't know what is.

Edited May 3, 2015 by discreet

[Sibob]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1430650966' post='2763328']


Hmmmm ... helpful if you're a drummer, I'd guess.

I found myself automatically listening to the bass player.


[/quote]

Surely, as a bassist, you should be listening to the drummer?!

Si

[discreet]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1430652477' post='2763362']
Surely, as a bassist, you should be listening to the drummer?
[/quote]

Yeah, what he said! Thhppppp!

[Happy Jack]

Bwahahahaha!!!

Touche.

[TimR]

Rushing is rushing. It happens when the musician isn't in control. Either playing a hard bit and 'trying too hard' or playing an easy bit and not using the correct note values.

It really has to be something you feel. I don't think you can 'wait' because it's so subtle that you'd be far too late. It's more of an anticipation or a relaxing of your playing.