Pretentious so called professionals

[Bilbo]

Not read the whole thread but I am astonished that someone refers to pros as 'pretentious' for discussing a well established musical phenomenon. PLaying ahead of or behind is perfectly recognisable and anyone with any experience can choose, in any given scenario, to play one way or the other. Of course, there will be a natural tendency, just as there is a tendency for people from one area to speak with a local accent. That doesn't mean that we cannot learn another way of speaking. If you play a lot of reggae, you will get comforatble playying behind the beat. If it's be-bop, you will proably play ahead of the beat. It's not set in stone and it is entirely comp[etence based rather than 'in your DNA'.

[ubit]

I appreciate what you are saying now and think I am probably doing this subconsciously anyway as when I'm playing with a drummer in say a slow number, I will obviously try to lock in with him, but there's no way that I will be consciously listening to every drum hit to make sure I'm in time. Some of the swing will be supplied by me. I am also the singer which further proves I can't listen to the drummer all the time. Any bass hits will be "felt" and any that are slightly behind the drum hit will be so undescernable that you wouldn't notice this obviously.
I get what you mean about the "feel" of a piece of music rather than just playing on auto, it's just the whole explanation that you are playing before or after the bass drum beat,that sounds like tosh to me as that would be clearly out of time.
I think it's an understanding rather than dismissal that was needed and I apologise for any offence.
I still think the crazy little thing videos are not the best example as the first one is clearly slower and not so "urgent"

[Coilte]

OP, I can understand you "not getting" playing ahead/behind the beat, but dismissing it out of hand and calling others pretentious for discussing it, would appear to be because YOU dont grasp it, then there is nothing to "get".

[ubit]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1430913241' post='2765825']
Not read the whole thread but I am astonished that someone refers to pros as 'pretentious' for discussing a well established musical phenomenon.
[/quote]

Just because someone makes their living playing bass does not neccasarily mean they know everything about music. A bass player could be "professional" purely because his guitarist mate can write great songs and they got lucky and got a deal .

Maybe it's better to read all the posts before wading in with your lot

[TimR]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430913481' post='2765829']
I appreciate what you are saying now and think I am probably doing this subconsciously anyway as when I'm playing with a drummer in say a slow number, I will obviously try to lock in with him, but there's no way that I will be consciously listening to every drum hit to make sure I'm in time. Some of the swing will be supplied by me. I am also the singer which further proves I can't listen to the drummer all the time. Any bass hits will be "felt" and any that are slightly behind the drum hit will be so undescernable that you wouldn't notice this obviously.
I get what you mean about the "feel" of a piece of music rather than just playing on auto, it's just the whole explanation that you are playing before or after the bass drum beat,that sounds like tosh to me as that would be clearly out of time.
I think it's an understanding rather than dismissal that was needed and I apologise for any offence.
I still think the crazy little thing videos are not the best example as the first one is clearly slower and not so "urgent"
[/quote]

Exacty.

But the bass drum isn't the beat. The beat is the pulse is in your (and all the other musician's) head. The bass drum may well usually be on that beat but not always.

Hence you're not actually listening for the drum beat to mark your time. You will be listening to it for other clues though.

I thought if you listen to the two crazy little thing tunes in isolation from each other I was hoping you'd pick up in the amount of swing in the first one and the amount of drive in the second. I may strip the sound out of the videos and speed the first one up to the same speed as the original and see if it demonstrates it better. It may be that there is more room to add swing and feel it more if the song is slower but I don't think that is what is happening there. The bass players are two different people.

Edited May 6, 2015 by TimR

[Sibob]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1430914139' post='2765841']
Exacty.

But the bass drum isn't the beat. The beat is the pulse is in your (and all the other musician's) head. The bass drum may well usually be on that beat but not always.

Hence you're not actually listening for the drum beat to mark your time. You will be listening to it for other clues though.
[/quote]

A good example of this would be when a drummer takes a solo, if it's a good band/good players, the drummer should be able to do whatever he likes with the timing and the band will retain time via the pulse in their heads. I saw Steve Smith solo with Vital Information once, his solo consisted of playing the same beat but gradually slowing down....the band carried on at tempo. He then gradually sped up, matched time with them, and continued to speed up whilst they again retained time. That was pure exercise as to how good their internal time was whilst Smith did whatever the hell he wanted with it. It was a bit of a head-trip

Si

[Bilbo]

You should listen to Trilok Gurtu soloing. He does astonishing things with the time when he is soloing against a figure.

[TimR]

Although I might start agreeing with ubit when he complains about pretentiousness if we're talking about abstract and avant guarde jazz.

[Coilte]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430913893' post='2765838']
Just because someone makes their living playing bass does not neccasarily mean they know everything about music. A bass player could be "professional" purely because his guitarist mate can write great songs and they got lucky and got a deal .
[/quote]

What constitutes a "pro" and what thy do and dont know, is a subject for another thread. The point in [u]this[/u] thread is that you are castigating others (regardless of their career status) for discussing something that [u]you[/u] have not yet grasped.

[yorks5stringer]

There's plenty of pretentiousness on Basschat but I would guess most of it is not actually from "Pro's", who are out there too busy trying to learn a living to be pretentious......

[DiceSociety]

This link of john paul jones talking about, and demonstrating playing ahead of, and behind the beat is quite interesting I think. Skip to 11:50 on the link.
Picture quality is pretty poor though, and it's a shame that his bass isn't plugged in. Oh well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaa1axJ63Qg

[ubit]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1430916553' post='2765876']


What constitutes a "pro" and what thy do and dont know, is a subject for another thread. The point in [u]this[/u] thread is that you are castigating others (regardless of their career status) for discussing something that [u]you[/u] have not yet grasped.
[/quote]

I did apologise for my lack of understanding. Let's not get into a slagging match after it's been sorted .

[TimR]

[quote name='DiceSociety' timestamp='1430916969' post='2765884']
This link of john paul jones talking about, and demonstrating playing ahead of, and behind the beat is quite interesting I think. Skip to 11:50 on the link.
Picture quality is pretty poor though, and it's a shame that his bass isn't plugged in. Oh well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaa1axJ63Qg
[/quote]

Led Zep and The Who are superb examples of where it is done really well in Rock.

[ubit]

[quote name='DiceSociety' timestamp='1430916969' post='2765884']
This link of john paul jones talking about, and demonstrating playing ahead of, and behind the beat is quite interesting I think. Skip to 11:50 on the link.
Picture quality is pretty poor though, and it's a shame that his bass isn't plugged in. Oh well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaa1axJ63Qg
[/quote]

Thank you, I think that has been the clearest example to me about playing around the beat. I think I have known about this without realising it, or knowing what I was doing. I feel like I have had an epiphany!

[ubit]

Even his term whether you push it or lean back on the beat, speaks to me much more than before. I just couldn't get my head round playing out with the beat , which sounds alien to me.

[seymourfluid]

Orchestras tend to play on the beat as do choirs and that’s why when they try to branch out and do a “popular” piece, it sounds so sanitised. All of the feel gets drained out and it drives me mental. I find people who trained in Orchestras tend not to get this concept as they have had feel and improvisation kicked out of them for obvious reasons.

Playing around the beat is where most of the feel comes from. It’s not pretentious, it’s called music.

[DiceSociety]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430918701' post='2765924']
Thank you, I think that has been the clearest example to me about playing around the beat. I think I have known about this without realising it, or knowing what I was doing. I feel like I have had an epiphany!
[/quote]

Glad to be of some sort of help. I know what you mean though, I think it's something most people do instinctively without being aware of it, depending on the feel of the song. I remember when I first started playing bass, I was in a rock band, and I would try to make the songs sound exciting, and without realising at the time, I was playing a smidge ahead of the beat. Probably something not to get too bogged down with IMO.

[Ben Jamin]

Here's a cool example of a band continually transitioning between lazy/behind the beat and pushy/ahead of the beat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5hYLC4_F9w

[scalpy]

[quote name='seymourfluid' timestamp='1430927246' post='2766053']
Try this.

https://youtu.be/XqS2N5jeWzM
[/quote]

Proved contentious earlier!

[ubit]

It's clearly an understanding of terms I think. I always referred to the beat as the drum beat, therefore being behind the drum beat, you are out of time. JPJ summed it up to me by saying "leaning back on the beat" which is what the band in the above song , are doing.
Some of the earlier examples were just plain out of time and sounded rotten , cos let's face it, if a band is not playing as a unit, it's gonna sound poxy. That Lettuce song was never out of time, but you could get a feel of them leaning back on the beat.
Once again, I apologise for my original post and I stand corrected about playing behind or in front of the beat.

Edit, in my original post, I asked [u]IS[/u] this pretentious sh*te, or am I missing something?
Some folks have gotten just a bit hot under the collar, maybe it was the title, but then again, it got noticed.

Edited May 7, 2015 by ubit

[lowhand_mike]

cant say i get it either, that dangelo stuff was awful, just sounded like they were trying to be clever, but sounding like fools (maybe its a tastte thing), one thing i was wondering after trawling through all this is how do you know whos in front and whos behind? if the drummer is laying back on the beat could it be that the bass player is infront instead? i think i get it in solo areas but in the overall rythmn of the song its just a feel and not really being infront or behind, but then ive come to this late and maybe havent grasped whats been said properly, maybe i already do this without noticing or maybe i'm not a pro

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='DiceSociety' timestamp='1430922148' post='2765967']


Glad to be of some sort of help. I know what you mean though, I think it's something most people do instinctively without being aware of it, depending on the feel of the song. I remember when I first started playing bass, I was in a rock band, and I would try to make the songs sound exciting, and without realising at the time, I was playing a smidge ahead of the beat. Probably something not to get too bogged down with IMO.
[/quote]
Possibly the best posts in this thread

[Sibob]

Listen to D'Angelos 'Voodoo' album! That entire album is behind the beat!! Pino is sometimes half a bar behind the kick and it's amazing!!

Si

[JamesBass]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1431028184' post='2767154']
Listen to D'Angelos 'Voodoo' album! That entire album is behind the beat!! Pino is sometimes half a bar behind the kick and it's amazing!!

Si
[/quote]
That album defined pocket playing groove to me. Pino and D have become gods in my mind after the depth I've studied that album! Utterly perfection in terms of musicality, technique, and sheer ability!

[TimR]

I've had a listen to some of that this morning and it's not very subtle. As an example of playing behind the beat I'm not sure it's a very good example as an introduction. Probably too 'jazz' for most people.