timhiggins Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I have a question for you Jazz cats, when walking through a chord pattern in lets say D minor is there anything wrong with using the minor/dorian scale, and just walking through the changes or should one always be aware of every chord and the appropriate arpeggio ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) [quote name='timhiggins' timestamp='1430779798' post='2764575'] I have a question for you Jazz cats, when walking through a chord pattern in lets say D minor is there anything wrong with using the minor/dorian scale, and just walking through the changes or should one always be aware of every chord and the appropriate arpeggio ? [/quote] I'd go with the appropriate modes... if your going with the 2,5,1,4 as a regular diatonic chord progression in D minor (F major) then you'll be fine with the dorian over the 2 but the 1,4 and 5 will be major chords so a dorian or aeolian would clash pretty badly if your moving the tonal center to the root with each chord change. I guess a walking bass in G dorian could work throughout all the chords in D minor but I'd go for the corresponding mode over each chord. Edited May 5, 2015 by CamdenRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 Cheers Rob i thought that would be the case , what prompted my question was a u tube lesson by Bill Harrison where he's walking over Em7 A7 Dm Bm7 ,and if i use the aeolian or dorian it all seems to work [more or less] ,and if i use the corresponding modes trying to avoid the obvious root placement it doesnt seem so different [ it may do on a listen back though ] ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) [quote name='timhiggins' timestamp='1430809609' post='2764650'] Cheers Rob i thought that would be the case , what prompted my question was a u tube lesson by Bill Harrison where he's walking over Em7 A7 Dm Bm7 ,and if i use the aeolian or dorian it all seems to work [more or less] ,and if i use the corresponding modes trying to avoid the obvious root placement it doesnt seem so different [ it may do on a listen back though ] ... [/quote] I'm no expert and if it sounds good i'd just go for it I may be wrong but those chords don't look in D minor to me though? D being the relative of F Major so you'd get F,Gm,Am,Bb,C,Dm,E/dim... Edited May 5, 2015 by CamdenRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 The answer to your question in yes and no (it would be, wouldn't it? ) There is an assumption that the content of a walking bass line is defined by the diatonic context and that, if the chords are diatonically related (i.e. in the same key), then any note in that key will work. Whilst this is techincally correct, it totally of misses the point of what a walking bass line is for and why the note choices matter. If, say, you line is in C major, the theory suggests that you can play a CDEFGA or B and it will be 'correct'. This is basically true but fails to recognise some pretty major issues. You can, in fact, play C C# D D# E F (yes, even F) F# G G# A A# or B depending on what effect you are trying to create. If, for instance, you play a G, it creates a massive amount of tension that you may or may not want in the context in which you are playing. A walking line creates forward motion in a performance and that motion ordinarily references chord changes, be they diatonic of not, so your lines need to reference some element of forward momentum as they move from chord to chord, Playing random diatonic notes will not create this momentum so, whilst the notes may not be 'wrong', the line will suck. A great example of this is the bass playing on 'Moondance' (which is why I hate it). It has no internal logic and doesn't contribute to the music (it detracts from it, if anything). There are also 100 other things to think about when determining your note choices; tempo and dynamics are obvious ones but you need to think in some way about the various approaches to generating tension and release, of supporting the soloist, of responding to ideas being put forward by the other instrumentalists etc. Random notes in the 'roght' key will achieve onoe of this. Ask yourself not whether the note is 'correct' but what it is there for and what it is seeking to contribute. Walking bass lines are the one aspect of Jazz bass playing that takes a minute to learn (what could be easier than straight quarter-notes) and a lifetime to master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1430810727' post='2764661'] I'm no expert and if it sounds good i'd just go for it [/quote] Yes but 'it sounds good' needs to be informed and the less time you spend with the concept of a walking line, the lower the expectations for it sounding 'good'. I suspect the musicians, producers and engineers who were there when Van Morrison recorded 'Moondance' would have thought that the bass line 'sounded good'. It didn't'; it sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Those chords look like a a minor ii-V-i-vi in Dm, although the ii is usually be Em(b5) and the V should be A7(b9). So I think your question is can you just stay on the D dorian for the whole progression, or should you play to individual chords? As Bilbo says, just because a note is 'right' doesn't mean that it will work in the context of the line. As a bass player, one of your main jobs is to outline the harmony of the piece - the easiest way to do this is to outline the individual chords. As you get more experienced, you'll learn to modify this requirement somewhat to create lines that more smoothly connect the chords, introduce tension and all the other good stuff in Bilbo's post. Having said that, if you find that playing a single mode over certain chord changes works for you, then it's worth taking the time to analyse what you've played as this will help you to figure out what to play over different changes. Edited May 5, 2015 by tinyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 Thanks for the wisdom all its very welcome .. so am i to assume that when Paul Chambers first played/recorded' Giant steps 'he could look at the chart and improvise a walking line at that tempo ? if so i may stick to playing reggae as i'm not sure i will ever get there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I think that Bilbo is your man for commenting about Paul Chambers, but my comments are based purely on how I think it is supposed to be done, not on what I'm actually capable of! But it's fun trying.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='timhiggins' timestamp='1430828442' post='2764921'] Thanks for the wisdom all its very welcome .. [/quote] Bilbo's post is wisdom... my input is based on self taught theory with many holes I am only recently beginning to plug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='timhiggins' timestamp='1430828442' post='2764921'] Thanks for the wisdom all its very welcome .. so am i to assume that when Paul Chambers first played/recorded' Giant steps 'he could look at the chart and improvise a walking line at that tempo ? if so i may stick to playing reggae as i'm not sure i will ever get there [/quote] Chambers did have sight of the Giant Steps chart in advance of the sessions and the version that was released was not take one of the first time PC played it. He had recorded it before six weeks earlier on a session that was not released until recently as part of a 'complete sessions' package. Tommy Flanagan played piano on the released session and he had seen the part in advance but had no idea that it would be as fast as it was (the sessions are discussed from p. 190 of Mr. P.C. The life and music of Paul Chambers). Cedar Walton played paino on the earlier version but neither he nor PC solo on it so the expectation that they get through it would not have been that unreasonable. I think Walton admitted that he struggled with it. It is important to acknowledge that some of the performances we hear on the great Jazz recordings can genuinely be take one but others can just as easily be take 26 or whatever. The 'magic' is borne of hard graft and solid practice not because these guys are 'Jazz ninjas'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1430832844' post='2764980'] The 'magic' is borne of hard graft and solid practice not because these guys are 'Jazz ninjas'. [/quote] Thanks for that Bilbo ,i can do hard graft and practice... there is hope yet I have recently acquired a stagg E.U.B and am really enjoying trying to get to grips with some much loved jazz that i have always intended to learn and thanks again all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1430814944' post='2764704'] The answer to your question in yes and no (it would be, wouldn't it? ) There is an assumption that the content of a walking bass line is defined by the diatonic context and that, if the chords are diatonically related (i.e. in the same key), then any note in that key will work. Whilst this is techincally correct, it totally of misses the point of what a walking bass line is for and why the note choices matter. [/quote] Furthermore the apparent diatonic relationship of the bare written chords may be misleading - a lot depends on how the other players are collectively interpreting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted May 24, 2015 Author Share Posted May 24, 2015 When listening to P.C. or Ron Carter i notice they both will use notes that aren't in the arpeggio or related scale to the chord they are playing over especially over a fast moving sequence of chords, which sounds good to me ..so what i'm getting at is although they had an awareness of chord structure they must have been playing by ear and often made a note choice for flow rather than be governed by the chart entirely or am i off the mark ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1430814944' post='2764704'] A walking line creates forward motion in a performance and that motion ordinarily references chord changes, be they diatonic of not, so your lines need to reference some element of forward momentum as they move from chord to chord, Playing random diatonic notes will not create this momentum so, whilst the notes may not be 'wrong', the line will suck. A great example of this is the bass playing on 'Moondance' (which is why I hate it). It has no internal logic and doesn't contribute to the music (it detracts from it, if anything). [/quote] *lightbulb moment* That probably explains why I find [i]Moondance[/i] so hard to retain in my head - it doesn't make musical sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booboo Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 I think PC & RC reached the point where fingers/ears/theory all gell and work together. I'm still trying to get there (like a moth trying to fly into a light bulb!), but sometimes it happens for a few bars on a good day and I think I'm getting there. Sadly it seems there is no substitute for time, hard work, and tallent but if there are some tablets I can take instead please let me know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted May 26, 2015 Author Share Posted May 26, 2015 [quote name='booboo' timestamp='1432457681' post='2781551'] I think PC & RC reached the point where fingers/ears/theory all gell and work together. I'm still trying to get there (like a moth trying to fly into a light bulb!), but sometimes it happens for a few bars on a good day and I think I'm getting there. Sadly it seems there is no substitute for time, hard work, and tallent but if there are some tablets I can take instead please let me know! [/quote] I make you right Booboo ,and if i find them pills i w ill try to save you one ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughRichardson Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 [quote name='timhiggins' timestamp='1430779798' post='2764575'] I have a question for you Jazz cats, when walking through a chord pattern in lets say D minor is there anything wrong with using the minor/dorian scale, and just walking through the changes or should one always be aware of every chord and the appropriate arpeggio ? [/quote] I would consider your most role within the band when playing walking bass. 99% of the time it's going to be to support and outline the harmony. This means that the modes approach is useful but personally, I wouldn't just chose any old notes from each mode. I would try to go for chord tones (1,3,5,7) as much as you can. You don't need to hit all of them but try to use ones that outline the base quality of the chord (usually 1,3,5) and connect them together with other notes from the mode. If I wanted to outline a D min7 for example I might start on D (1) then pass through E to play F (3) then up to A (5) etc or play D, B, A, F to get a little more of the dorian sour in there. In either case, because I'm still using chord tones I'm able to play something that supports the harmony, is relevant to the music and also get the modal quality into the sound of my line a little more. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1432457491' post='2781549'] *lightbulb moment* That probably explains why I find [i]Moondance[/i] so hard to retain in my head - it doesn't make musical sense! [/quote]It's a tune within the tune to my ears. I used to play this in a band and other than referencing the original bass line 'head' (about 4 bars) at the start of the verses, I preferred to just walk through some scales as it seemed to flow better (I did it by ear rather than analysis, as my theory, especially at that time, sucked) and felt more natural to play. Of course, no punter would've noticed unless they were bass players - 'twas ever thus Edited May 27, 2015 by ezbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 [quote name='HughRichardson' timestamp='1432680221' post='2783973'] I would consider your most role within the band when playing walking bass. 99% of the time it's going to be to support and outline the harmony. This means that the modes approach is useful but personally, I wouldn't just chose any old notes from each mode. I would try to go for chord tones (1,3,5,7) as much as you can. You don't need to hit all of them but try to use ones that outline the base quality of the chord (usually 1,3,5) and connect them together with other notes from the mode. If I wanted to outline a D min7 for example I might start on D (1) then pass through E to play F (3) then up to A (5) etc or play D, B, A, F to get a little more of the dorian sour in there. In either case, because I'm still using chord tones I'm able to play something that supports the harmony, is relevant to the music and also get the modal quality into the sound of my line a little more. Does that make sense? [/quote]Yes that was very helpful ,and i think i would make those same note choices over Dmin 7 ,although i also like the blues scale over it , its those chromatic runs i like but i'm not sure those playing with me are so keen ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjs1909 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Walter Page from the Count Basie Orchestra is another person worth studying. He was one of the pioneers of walking lines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Cheers ,i wiil check him out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.jpg.7e18f76540598a8efc0e6ca9be453059.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.