Pickup choice for Double bass

[Jezyorkshire]

Had my Double bass about 5 weeks now and really lovin it, need to get a pickup so i can start using it at gigs, anyone using the k&k bass max, what are they like?
Will my Markbass 112h combo be okay and will i need a preamp between pickup and amp input to balance signal, cheers, Jez.

[BassBus]

I don't have any experience with the K&K max but I have used Fishman BP100 which gives a good solid pizz but is pretty hopeless for bowing, too toppy.

The Realist is also a well regarded pickup but it involves loosening strings and putting the pickup under the bridge foot. It gave me a good sound without a preamp but it didn't last long.

I have since settled with the Shadow SH950 which has two transducers which slot in between the wings of the bridge so no loosening of strings or movement of the bridge needed to install it. This is their version of the Underwood DB pickup which is just about the most popular DB pickup there is. It gives me a great sound without a preamp going into my Acoustic Image Contra. I do sometimes use a SansAmp BDDI with it as that cuts the mids. It just depends on the room I'm playing in.

One pickup might sound good on one bass and sound terrible on the next though. Unfortunately it takes a bit of experimentation and that can get expensive. hope that's of some help.

[NeonMig]

I've got the Shadow, can't remember the model number but the one that fits under the wings of the bridge. Might be the SH950. Sound is okay, does its job but I think in order to get a truly accurate sound out of a PA, you need to have it miced up as well and mix the signals. That's what Renaud Garcia-Fons does and it sounds awsome.

Your double bass should sound great through the MarkBass, they tend to have a very transparent and 'natural' sound, which is exactly what you need for double bass.

Edited August 23, 2008 by NeonMig

[BassBus]

[quote name='NeonMig' post='268414' date='Aug 23 2008, 12:09 PM']I've got the Shadow, can't remember the model number but the one that fits under the wings of the bridge. Might be the SH950. Sound is okay, does its job but I think in order to get a truly accurate sound out of a PA, you need to have it miced up as well and mix the signals. That's what Renaud Garcia-Fons does and it sounds awsome.[/quote]

Well you certainly can't question that. Lovely sound and great player.

[chrkelly]

The Fishman Full Circle is great, and I just happen to be selling one (shameless plug)

[Mcdrewson]

You could could try the Schertler Stat-B Select. All the Schertler gear is excellent.
[url="http://www.schertler.com/prodotti_ing/pickups/double_bass.htm"]http://www.schertler.com/prodotti_ing/pick...double_bass.htm[/url]

[benbastin]

I've been using the realist for 4 years now. Got one on my cello too. If installed correctly it sounds fantastic, and i've never had any feedback issues even on big stages. i've used the fishman, which as stated is useless if you ever want to bow, not bad otherwise but i found it to inhibit the vibration of the bridge a bit. i had an underwood for a while which was quite nice, but mine was a bit unreliable.

The other thing to remeber is that a pickup will react differently to different basses. so a realist on one bass will be very different to a realist on another bass. That being said, i've never heard a bass sound bass with a realist on.

Good luck

[NeonMig]

[quote name='benbastin' post='268857' date='Aug 24 2008, 03:13 PM']That being said, i've never heard a bass sound bass with a realist on.

Good luck[/quote]

Um, not to sound cheeky but I don't quite get what you mean here...

Edited August 25, 2008 by NeonMig

[benbastin]

sorry, good point. i meant i've never heard a bass sound [i]Bad[/i] with a realist.

[hutchpeter]

Hi,

I've tried lots of pickups including the Shertler - too much feedback and the Realist - too muddy.

The one I always come back to is the cheapest and simplest - the K&K Bass Max from (all hail) Bob Gollihur.

Have fun!

Edited September 3, 2008 by hutchpeter

[mybass]

[quote name='Jezyorkshire' post='268213' date='Aug 22 2008, 11:29 PM']Had my Double bass about 5 weeks now and really lovin it, need to get a pickup so i can start using it at gigs, anyone using the k&k bass max, what are they like?
Will my Markbass 112h combo be okay and will i need a preamp between pickup and amp input to balance signal, cheers, Jez.[/quote]

Old mate of mine used to stick an SM58 wrapped in foam between the bridge feet.

[johnny dissident]

I use the KK bass max,it's the only pickup I have used so far so have nothing to compare it with.plugged straight into a clarus 1 it sounds good to me and so very easy to fit and use.

[NickPini]

It's a never ending problem isn't it?

I'm currently going through the mill of finding a new pickup. Had a lot of advice from sound engineers, bass players and producers. Also some jazz guitarists who've had similar issues with hollow body guitars and feedback etc.

Reached a conclusion for my own circumstance, might not be suitable to anyone else..

I do a lot of loud volume gigs, as well as quieter ones. Personally, I need to amplify my acoustic sound as accurately as possible. For pizz, and for bowing. I can't see the point in spending a moderate amount of money on something which you need to effect afterwards in order to re-create an acoustic sound. If you're really after it, you're probably going to have to pay up...

A lot of the really top bassists out there seem to blend 2 signals -one mic, one pickup. check out Dave Holland, john pattituci, ron carter, charlie haden, christian mcbride and so on.. A common choice seems to be the realist, blended with and mic by AMT -SP25B (http://www.gollihurmusic.com/product/1472-AMT_UPRIGHT_BASS_MICROPHONE_SYSTEMS_SP25B_S25B.html) or something similar. You send the mic straight to the PA, then the pickup to your amp which then also goes to the PA. That way, you can get all your clarity from the pickup, and your wood/umph from the mic. Unfortunately, that really is a big bill to pay, and you need a sound guy who actually knows what he's doing.

What I'm going to try is getting this Schertler stat select pickup, which seems to be rated pretty well, and put it through an EQ pedal -I've found a list of the frequencies you should boost/cut out for double bass when you're recording, and for live to avoid feedback. Another big influence in feedback is the fact that the bass is effectively it's own amplifier anyway -it's that big body that's causing the frequencies to behave like that, so I'm looking into doing what guitarists do, and buying to plugs for the F-holes for those really loud gigs. That [i]should[/i] sort it out.

I'll let you know what happens..

xx

[bassace]

[quote name='NickPini' post='509252' date='Jun 9 2009, 04:59 PM']It's a never ending problem isn't it?

I'm currently going through the mill of finding a new pickup. Had a lot of advice from sound engineers, bass players and producers. Also some jazz guitarists who've had similar issues with hollow body guitars and feedback etc.

Reached a conclusion for my own circumstance, might not be suitable to anyone else..

I do a lot of loud volume gigs, as well as quieter ones. Personally, I need to amplify my acoustic sound as accurately as possible. For pizz, and for bowing. I can't see the point in spending a moderate amount of money on something which you need to effect afterwards in order to re-create an acoustic sound. If you're really after it, you're probably going to have to pay up...

A lot of the really top bassists out there seem to blend 2 signals -one mic, one pickup. check out Dave Holland, john pattituci, ron carter, charlie haden, christian mcbride and so on.. A common choice seems to be the realist, blended with and mic by AMT -SP25B (http://www.gollihurmusic.com/product/1472-AMT_UPRIGHT_BASS_MICROPHONE_SYSTEMS_SP25B_S25B.html) or something similar. You send the mic straight to the PA, then the pickup to your amp which then also goes to the PA. That way, you can get all your clarity from the pickup, and your wood/umph from the mic. Unfortunately, that really is a big bill to pay, and you need a sound guy who actually knows what he's doing.

What I'm going to try is getting this Schertler stat select pickup, which seems to be rated pretty well, and put it through an EQ pedal -I've found a list of the frequencies you should boost/cut out for double bass when you're recording, and for live to avoid feedback. Another big influence in feedback is the fact that the bass is effectively it's own amplifier anyway -it's that big body that's causing the frequencies to behave like that, so I'm looking into doing what guitarists do, and buying to plugs for the F-holes for those really loud gigs. That [i]should[/i] sort it out.

I'll let you know what happens..

xx[/quote]

I can't argue with your theory. Trouble is, as I've said before, not all gigs-especially the jazz ones- have the benefit of a good PA or an intelligent sound man. You'll need this to put any mic through or you'll get feedback through your backline. If you're doing a big gig the sound you'll get will be a good approximation but nothing like the genuine acoustic sound, so why worry. If you're doing a small intimate gig then that's the time to really work on your sound. I've no expereince of the Schertler but I'm told it's a bit fussy to set up. The one all the guys in US are talking about is the Vektor by a guy called Toby Timber. You might care to Google him.

Good luck with the never ending quest.

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='NickPini' post='509252' date='Jun 9 2009, 04:59 PM']What I'm going to try is getting this Schertler stat select pickup, which seems to be rated pretty well, and put it through an EQ pedal -I've found a list of the frequencies you should boost/cut out for double bass when you're recording, and for live to avoid feedback.[/quote]
Can you share those EQ recipies with us ?

Also, knowing the source would be interesting (Sound magazine ? Award-winning Engineer ? Someone you met in a pub ? )

Andy

[JanSpeeltBas]

Good points all around. Myself using an Underwood with buffer preamp which is quite essential since all piezo's are high impedance. Only few bassamps are able to take a piezo signal direct (the Acoustic Image being one of the few). So you'll need a 10M input preamp, feeding the typical IM input of most bass amps. When using a PA system use an active DI, you won't believe how good this can sound, providing you use an active DI with a 10M input (eg. Countryman) since most active DI's are also 1M or even less. Good luck with your sound search...

[NickPini]

Here's a link for eq frequencies: [url="http://www.recordingeq.com/Subscribe/tip/tascam.htm"]http://www.recordingeq.com/Subscribe/tip/tascam.htm[/url] There's a lot of them up if you google it, most of them agree with each other.. Or if you fancy it, there's a lot of really good books on mixing and mastering which'll contain the same information and more..

Basically, the trick seems to be:
drop out anything below 50hz unless you're using a sub. Frequencies below this apparently aren't naturally produced much in your bass anyway.
These next frequencies are the main ones, due to harmonics or some such complicated thing.. basically, good to boost, but may also be the ones causing feedback so you need to get the right balance of them. (I've been told 800hz is especially prone to feeding back..) Obviously these frequencies depend a bit on your bass. If you've the option of turning down any frequencies in between these, then do. Other wise, if you boost all of them, it's pretty much like just turning the volume up.
50-100hz for fatness
400hz for a bit of clarity
800hz for clarity and a bit of punch. Might want to blend this with 400hz, as they do similar things..
1.5khz and above for finger noise.. varying degrees of zing, if you know what I mean.

Thanks all for your responses! Definitely avoiding the mic solution for now, as I can't afford it anyway.. I did once do a tour where the sound guy used a clip-on tom mic attached to the bridge which worked surprisingly well..

I'm still intrigued to try out this schertler jobby.. I'm slightly worried that if I bought a pickup which was basically the same as the one I have now, just a little bit better and a little bit more expensive, I'd just get frustrated with it in a few months.. I just researched the Vektor -it looks brilliant.. in fact, I'm cursing the fact that you've just presented me with another option! damn damn damn

Glad I found this site though, as my girlfriend's sick to the teeth of me waffling on about some review on the new sp34592928.4blah electro static shock mounted pre-pre amp etc etc.

[jonny-lad]

I have a K&K bass max. Sounds quite good to me, although I've never used anything else.

Also works well without a preamp - worked well into my Little Mark II when I tried it but I tend to use my Roland DB-500 for it, as I've only got a 4x10 for the Little Mark II.

[NickPini]

Bought Shirtlifter (Schertler) stat select yesterday. Slightly complicated to put on, but ok if you've got patience for that sort of thing. Could always get your luthier to do it..

Anyway, sounds f%&£ing incredible. I was worried that it might be a waste of money, but no no no no.. It comes with the pre-A111 too, and seriously, the amount of power you get out of it is ridiculous. Probably not for everyone, depends what you want, but for me it beats any piezzo I've heard by a long long way.

Bad points:

complicated to put on
extra wires and cables (-power supply for preamp, cable into pre.., cable out of pre is female xlr to jack or just xlr if your amp can take one)

Honestly though, that's it..

Good points:

Extremely good sound -very very natural pizz or arco
Preamp A111 is really good. The options for effecting the sound are simple but very effective.. Resonance -adjusts warmth and attac. Bass, treble -big difference between using them and not, but the natural sound without them is great! Obviously it's got Gain and volume.. plenty of juice!
Fits onto the bass in a neat and unobtrusive manner. Pickup in the G-string side eye, and the cable clips securely on the tail with no bother.

To be honest, I'm still buzzing from the relief that it's actually sounding great, which may not be a good thing if you want to just plug in and go. You have to adjust the cork capsule which houses the mic itself to fit it into your bridge, and once you've done that there's obviously no taking it back to the shop if you don't like how it works on your bass. So it's a bit hazardous, and god forbid you might muck up the installation and be left with a totally useless bit of gear. I'd recommend taking it to your luthier if you're worried about it.

I'm pretty busy over the next few weeks so I'll let you know how I fair with it!

[hubrad]

[quote name='benbastin' post='269953' date='Aug 26 2008, 12:46 AM']sorry, good point. i meant i've never heard a bass sound [i]Bad[/i] with a realist.[/quote]
heh, heh.. d'you mean 'bad' or 'baaaad'?

[ficelles]

[quote name='NickPini' post='509808' date='Jun 10 2009, 01:07 AM']Basically, the trick seems to be:
drop out anything below 50hz unless you're using a sub. Frequencies below this apparently aren't naturally produced much in your bass anyway.[/quote]

Just noticed this while trawling through looking for double bass pickup advice... I'm sure most in here know that the fundamental frequency of a concert-pitch E string on a double bass is 41.25 Hz. Roll off below 50 Hz and you drop out everything from your low G down. Don't do it!

ficelles

[Gareth Hughes]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1147910' date='Mar 3 2011, 12:08 AM']Just noticed this while trawling through looking for double bass pickup advice... I'm sure most in here know that the fundamental frequency of a concert-pitch E string on a double bass is 41.25 Hz. Roll off below 50 Hz and you drop out everything from your low G down. Don't do it!

ficelles[/quote]

Whilst that's technically true it isn't always practically applicable to keep in those low frequencies. Setting a HPF even as high as 100Hz can be great for using an upright live, and also when mixing upright on records - a lot of those lower frequencies can just swamp the 100-250Hz range where the meat of your tone is - much in the same way that boosting too much high end can make your bass sound thin, even tho you haven't cut any low freqs.

As for best pickup - I'm getting the best tone, and most useable live, with an APTflex Electret pickup going into a Boss TU-2 tuner as a buffer and then into a Genz Benz Shuttle 3.0/10T. I'm really finding that everything in the signal chain interacts with each other to a huge degree. That pickup into my Markbass/Epifani rig is just low-end mush. I had been using a Fishman Dual Parametric DI as a buffer for years, but finally realised that the 10 Mohm input was letting in way too much lowend - the 1 Mohm input of the Boss is working so much better, seems to act like a HPF filter of sorts. Whatever the reason, this is what's working best for me, and I've tried A LOT of combinations!!

[janmaat]

I did try the K&K of a friend which was great, easy to operate and cool for a live situation with the pre on the belt. Has very cool features on the box and trim pots inside it. Only issue is that the E string tends to be louder than the G as there is only one bridge pickup. Great for rockabilly with the fingerboard pickup for slap.

I now have a realist and a shadow, which I blend in EBS microbass - phantastic range of sounds and the ability to
cut certain freqs, but a lot of sound fiddling to get there. I love the mute switch.

Then I go into Minimark, which is phantastic for a DB stage monitor with its 2x6".

The only thing that really sounds crap now is the DB itself (cheap restored china bass with innovation nylon strings) - well but I have a unique sound!

My m8 who lent me the K&K now only uses Fishman Pro Platinum which is truly phantastic for the ability to DI and EQ, and surely the most pro of choice.

Edited March 3, 2011 by janmaat

[TPJ]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1148053' date='Mar 3 2011, 09:36 AM']Whilst that's technically true it isn't always practically applicable to keep in those low frequencies. Setting a HPF even as high as 100Hz can be great for using an upright live[/quote]

++1

We usually ask the sound man to dump anything below 100-180 Hz to get a workable tone yet still retain good lowend.

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1148053' date='Mar 3 2011, 09:36 AM']As for best pickup - I'm getting the best tone, and most useable live, with an APTflex Electret pickup going into a Boss TU-2 tuner as a buffer and then into a Genz Benz Shuttle 3.0/10T.[/quote]

I'd love to try one of those pickups. Whilst I love the sound of the Fishman FC, it aint as portable as the APT or a Bmax.

[Gareth Hughes]

TPJ - they're great pickups, IMO. Like a Realist but with a lot more clarity - less muddy low mids and far greater high end transparency. One thing I forgot to mention is that my bass has laminated back and sides. I really feel this helps in dealing with feedback. Gig last night I was standing right beside the drummer - scraping distance from his hi-hats. Usually being that close, my previous carved bass would have resonated with each kick drum beat. And if the kick is going through the PA then fuggedaboudit.