Replacing Berg CN212 with 2x BF Super Compacts... Thoughts?

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1431471959' post='2771806']
I don't really understand the 'loud' or 'louder than' requirements.

It always sounds a bit Spinal Tap to me but maybe I'm just odd!

With a 2x10 8ohm cab and an 800w head (therefore running at about 500w) I never need to turn the master up beyond 11:00 and that's against two relatively loud guitarists - one of whom usually has his Vox firing right at me.

Any more than that and the bass becomes overpowering and kills the broader sound of the band as a whole.

There's always a little bass in the PA and it's properly mixed so that the band as a whole sounds like a cohesive unit.
[/quote]

I agree.

I think this is based upon a 'desire to be heard' for some, where I struggle, is the desire to "cut through a mix" comments one often reads, I like my bass to be part of the music - right in the mix...

[Conan]

[quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1431497741' post='2771851']
where I struggle, is the desire to "cut through a mix" comments one often reads, I like my bass to be part of the music - right in the mix...
[/quote]

Yes, but in order to be "in" the mix, one has to "cut through" the other instruments to a certain extent!

That's where EQ comes in, rather than out-and-out volume. Find your sonic space, and all that...

Edited May 13, 2015 by Conan

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1431498893' post='2771858']
Yes, but in order to be "in" the mix, one has to "cut through" the other instruments to a certain extent!
[/quote]

The way I see it.. if there's a bass part, it is a part of the music, if the bass needs to be heard within the music as a melody or feature then this is part of the mix.. If the issue is how loud do you speakers go, this is science, its not music.
Over many years of playing in bands from Cock Rock to Jazz instrumentals, I've learned to play as quietly as possible on stage and let the PA deliver the mix.

[largo]

One of the issue I have is that the bass through the FOH becomes so loud & bassy that it drowns out my on stage sound.
In turn, I then turn the volume up "on stage" to hear myself and/or increase the mids to cut through. All I get is grief from the guys on stage that my sound is mid heavy.
I now prefer to have a speaker stack close to my ears which means the FOH doesn't affect what I'm hearing so much.

[Conan]

[quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1431502007' post='2771881']I've learned to play as quietly as possible on stage and let the PA deliver the mix.
[/quote]Horses for courses. Not every band plays with a big PA and soundman.

My band only puts vocals through the (small) PA so everyone else is responsible for their own sound - and their stage sound [b][i]IS[/i][/b] the out-front sound. In those cases, cutting through and being audible are part of the same issue IMO/IME.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Conan

[ern500evo]

We shouldn't really be surprised but it seems any thread that has anything to do with Barefaced turns into a argument! I use a Big Twin 2, why? Because I wanted something smaller/lighter/easier to transport than my old rig. The key factor for me was the fact I could take it for a month, gig it, rehearse with it and see if I liked it, and if I didn't then return it. I liked it so I kept it. However I don't think I've ever felt the need to preach to someone else about buying one! I've offered it to people to try, but if they were to come back and say "actually it's sh*te, the handles are crap and the feet look like they're about to fall off" I wouldn't be offended in the slightest, because I would still like it, and it's me that paid for it and me that has to gig it! I love the look of Berg CN212's and the only Berg I've ever played through,a NV610, was immense, but I went for the BT2 and I'm happy with that. As you can probably tell I'm bored at work so thought I'd join in! 😀 If you like berg's, buy one, if you like Barefaced, buy one, if you like TKS, buy one, just enjoy what you buy and don't waste your time telling everyone how sh*te the ones you didn't buy are!

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='ern500evo' timestamp='1431505713' post='2771920']
As you can probably tell I'm bored at work so thought I'd join in..
[/quote]

Me too.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1431471959' post='2771806']It always sounds a bit Spinal Tap to me but maybe I'm just [b]OLD[/b]![/quote]

Fixed that for you!

[molan]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1431507296' post='2771947']


Fixed that for you!
[/quote]

Lol, I used to have a 'if it's too loud you're too old' sticker on my bass hard case - then I saw one that read 'if it's too loud. . . you're being an inconsiderate dick' and I started reconsidering my view

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1431471959' post='2771806'] I don't really understand the 'loud' or 'louder than' requirements. It always sounds a bit Spinal Tap to me but maybe I'm just odd! With a 2x10 8ohm cab and an 800w head (therefore running at about 500w) I never need to turn the master up beyond 11:00 and that's against two relatively loud guitarists - one of whom usually has his Vox firing right at me. Any more than that and the bass becomes overpowering and kills the broader sound of the band as a whole. There's always a little bass in the PA and it's properly mixed so that the band as a whole sounds like a cohesive unit. [/quote]
In essence I agree. I use a Berg CN212 with a variety of heads and have always been really happy with the Berg cab. Could not have asked for anything louder.
Yet a couple of weeks ago I was playing at a gig where backline was provided and there was an Ampeg 'fridge' (8x10) being driven with an Orange 1000w terror. I have to say that set up was something else.
Yet, would I be prepared to drag that big heavy cab to gigs?...not a chance. The Berg is the best cab I have ever owned, though I have no experience with Barefaced.

[dmccombe7]

I have 2 AE112 light weight Bergs and i find they lack something which i cant quite put my finger on. Depth possible when driven.
I also have a Berg HT322 which is far more solid feel to the tone.
AE's great for handling and rehearsals but HT322 delivers at gigs altho its pretty damned heavy.
Like the sound of what people say about Barefaced cabs tho with regards retaining the low end at higher volumes.

I'm currently looking at other options ie 2x10 cabs as i just like 10" speakers which always seem to have a more mid-range punch that i like.

Still trying to make my mind up tho
GAS bloody GAS.

Dave

[IanA]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1431535029' post='2772349']
I have 2 AE112 light weight Bergs and i find they lack something which i cant quite put my finger on. Depth possible when driven.
I also have a Berg HT322 which is far more solid feel to the tone.
AE's great for handling and rehearsals but HT322 delivers at gigs altho its pretty damned heavy.
Like the sound of what people say about Barefaced cabs tho with regards retaining the low end at higher volumes
I'm currently looking at other options ie 2x10 cabs as i just like 10" speakers which always seem to have a more mid-range punch that i like.

Still trying to make my mind up tho
GAS bloody GAS.

Dave
[/quote]
The AE112 is the least desirable of all Jims cabs, HD and CN cabs are a revelation in comparison!

[JTUK]

[quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1431497741' post='2771851']
I agree.

I think this is based upon a 'desire to be heard' for some, where I struggle, is the desire to "cut through a mix" comments one often reads, I like my bass to be part of the music - right in the mix...
[/quote]

But too much bass doesn't get you heard in a defined way, IMO, which is why I don't run
systems with a lot of bass. If you want to muddy up your sound, and the band mix, for that matter,
run humbuckers into a bassey cab and you will really be struggling...
I'm almost bemused how people want louder ..and all they have to contend with is a gtr and drums..albeit loud ones.

Where you really need to get sorted is if you run against keys and drums ..and if you have a big bass tone, this
really is a silly fight to get into, IMO. This doesn't mean your bass sound has to be bass light, but it does
need more set-up and thinking about that just trying to out muscle the other guy/guys...

You can always add bass, but you can't so easily get rid of it...

[alexclaber]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1431541979' post='2772456']You can always add bass, but you can't so easily get rid of it...[/quote]

This is the absolute opposite of reality! It is incredibly easy to get rid of bass (turn the bass knob to the left) but impossible to add more than the limit determined by the volume displacement of a loudspeaker.

[mcnach]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1431426877' post='2771124']
And here's me thinking that vanderklay is everybody's new beau.
[/quote]

I very nearly went there, but ended up with TKS in the end.
I meant to substitute the BF cabs (Gen2 Compact and Gen3 BB2) but I can't bring myself to do it. I like them both in slightly different ways.

Edited May 14, 2015 by mcnach

[tauzero]

[quote name='IanA' timestamp='1431539192' post='2772410']
The AE112 is the least desirable of all Jims cabs, HD and CN cabs are a revelation in comparison!
[/quote]

I'm very happy with my pair of AE112s. Best sound I've ever had.

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1431541979' post='2772456']
But too much bass doesn't get you heard in a defined way, IMO, which is why I don't run
systems with a lot of bass. If you want to muddy up your sound, and the band mix, for that matter,
run humbuckers into a bassey cab and you will really be struggling...
I'm almost bemused how people want louder ..and all they have to contend with is a gtr and drums..albeit loud ones.

Where you really need to get sorted is if you run against keys and drums ..and if you have a big bass tone, this
really is a silly fight to get into, IMO. This doesn't mean your bass sound has to be bass light, but it does
need more set-up and thinking about that just trying to out muscle the other guy/guys...

[/quote]

I think we're in broad agreement, playing live I have a flat onstage sound that most here would probably object to, I rely on the FOH engineer to make sense of it in a mix. I'm not looking to compete with any one on stage, (we're there to play music).

If playing bass as a solo instrument, I can see the merits of a debate about speakers, this would of course be part of a wider debate about,technique, strings, amps and effects etc. But as part of a band, to my tastes anyway, a neutral bass tone works well. The Youtube videos / soundtracks of isolated bass picked off classic tracks from times past generally demonstate this.

[molan]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1431507296' post='2771947']


Fixed that for you!
[/quote]

Ian Gillan agrees with me

: Gillan says Deep Purple are a better live act since they stopped trying to be the loudest band on the planet.

The frontman recalls the band's brutal noise levels during the 1970s, in particular the 1972 London Rainbow Theatre show in 1972 which the Guinness Book Of Records confirmed made them the loudest band on earth. Volumes reached 117 decibels that night and there are tales of audience members losing consciousness as a result.

Gillan says “We used to be pretty loud, but I think the focus has changed now. The impact of sheer volume was one thing that used to get written up about. The equipment now is so sophisticated, you can have volume without pain.

"It’s actually enjoyable. You’re not running around with your ears ringing after the show, like you used to be. There’s a lot more focus on what’s actually going on on stage. You can get involved with that a lot more. I think it’s a vast improvement over what it used to be.”

[stevie]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1431554523' post='2772653']
This is the absolute opposite of reality! It is incredibly easy to get rid of bass (turn the bass knob to the left) but impossible to add more than the limit determined by the volume displacement of a loudspeaker.
[/quote]
It's only incredibly easy if the excess bass perfectly matches the curve of the tone control. If you have a boom at 100Hz, you're a bit stuck.

[IanA]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1431610103' post='2773174']


I'm very happy with my pair of AE112s. Best sound I've ever had.
[/quote]
I am really pleased for you👍
Couldn't wait to get rid of mine and I know a lot of others felt the same way as well, it is good too see however that the diverse tastes and needs of players are well catered by all the different kit that is now available.

[molan]

[quote name='IanA' timestamp='1431614972' post='2773256']

I am really pleased for you👍
Couldn't wait to get rid of mine and I know a lot of others felt the same way as well, it is good too see however that the diverse tastes and needs of players are well catered by all the different kit that is now available.
[/quote]

Funnily enough I've not heard anyone complain about the AE series. The AE112 and 210's have always been very popular. One of the easiest cabs to sell because they're in so much demand

[alexclaber]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1431614802' post='2773252']It's only incredibly easy if the excess bass perfectly matches the curve of the tone control. If you have a boom at 100Hz, you're a bit stuck.[/quote]

Most bass knobs on amps are pretty broad shelving controls so you'd have to have a pretty extreme peak in response for the bass knob to fail to help. Then again, if you had a sharp boom at 100Hz you could just pull your cab away from the nearest wall until it's 2-3' from it, which will cause a notch in response at about 100Hz (due to the boundary reflection being out of phase with the direct sound).

I've read too many posts over on talkbass from players who only play in very professional function bands where volumes are carefully controlled and everyone knows how to play around each other and therefore have no clue what life can be like in a loud guitar-driven band for a bass player, especially playing venues with poor PA systems. Molan, I get the impression you've played enough to realise that not everyone can be in bands with more SPL-control but it's easy to forget how different the output requirements can be for two bassists within one genre (or even playing/dep'ing in the same band) let alone in hugely varied contexts.

[IanA]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1431616692' post='2773277']
Funnily enough I've not heard anyone complain about the AE series. The AE112 and 210's have always been very popular. One of the easiest cabs to sell because they're in so much demand
[/quote]
The AE210V and AE212 get a lot of love and understandably so, there are quite a few of the guys(myself included) on Talkbass who are just not that keen on the AE112, it is not a bad cab by any means but seems to get less love than some of Jims other creations.
It would have been nice to have met you when I dropped into the shop to pick up a bass a couple of weeks ago, I met Vic and Phil, great guys and nice store...hope to deal again some time!

[IanA]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1431612642' post='2773219'] Ian Gillan agrees with me : Gillan says Deep Purple are a better live act since they stopped trying to be the loudest band on the planet. The frontman recalls the band's brutal noise levels during the 1970s, in particular the 1972 London Rainbow Theatre show in 1972 which the Guinness Book Of Records confirmed made them the loudest band on earth. Volumes reached 117 decibels that night and there are tales of audience members losing consciousness as a result. Gillan says “We used to be pretty loud, but I think the focus has changed now. The impact of sheer volume was one thing that used to get written up about. The equipment now is so sophisticated, you can have volume without pain. "It’s actually enjoyable. You’re not running around with your ears ringing after the show, like you used to be. There’s a lot more focus on what’s actually going on on stage. You can get involved with that a lot more. I think it’s a vast improvement over what it used to be.” [/quote]

I agree with your point, we keep our stage volume as low as possible and drive the sound through front of house to the point that my CN212 is way overkill for most of the time

[stevie]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1431617839' post='2773288']
Most bass knobs on amps are pretty broad shelving controls so you'd have to have a pretty extreme peak in response for the bass knob to fail to help.
[/quote]

That's exactly my point. Shelving filters are not much good for peaks. They will get rid of a100Hz boom but will also cut the frequencies below that.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1431617839' post='2773288']
Then again, if you had a sharp boom at 100Hz you could just pull your cab away from the nearest wall until it's 2-3' from it, which will cause a notch in response at about 100Hz (due to the boundary reflection being out of phase with the direct sound).
[/quote]

Well in theory if you pulled your cab 2-3' away from the wall you'd still have a peak at 100Hz but you'd add a dip at 150Hz. So that approach, while it can be effective, is a bit hit and miss and not always possible anyway.