Replacing Berg CN212 with 2x BF Super Compacts... Thoughts?

[IanA]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1431811829' post='2775301']
It's all smiles and party here tonight... wow :/ The OP probably wishes they'd never asked now...
[/quote]
One big happy family😍
Keep the Berg!🙈

[mcnach]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1431809590' post='2775278']
Well seeing as you asked Alex, I think that saying you were married for ten years before you shot your wife isn't much of a defence. Nor is the fact that other people have shot their wives.

Not that I'm suggesting you have ever shot your wife, of course. By the way, what did they get you for? [b]Spamming the discussion threads?[/b]
[/quote]

are you serious???

if someone posts about a product of brand X, and the head of brand X joins the discussion, isn't that something good?
well, except for those who dislike brand X.
Here's a thought, how about you leave those who like brand X in peace and not try to piss off the guy (head of brand X) whose contributions are appreciated by others?
Stop trying to sabotage other people's enjoyment and let them be, ffs.

Edited May 16, 2015 by mcnach

[machinehead]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1431809590' post='2775278']
Well seeing as you asked Alex, I think that saying you were married for ten years before you shot your wife isn't much of a defence. Nor is the fact that other people have shot their wives.

Not that I'm suggesting you have ever shot your wife, of course. By the way, what did they get you for? Spamming the discussion threads?
[/quote]

Thats taking sh!t stirring into the region of an art form. Excellent!

Frank.

[IanA]

This forum really needs a "like" function!

[interpol52]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1431805724' post='2775232']


So here is a novel idea - why don't you just leave it there instead of trolling the same old venom every single time a Barefaced cab is mentioned? It would make life so much less tedious for everyone. I mean, we all get it now - you don't like them.

So, in summary. You don't like them? Fine. A lot of people do. That's fine.
[/quote]

Well said.

[largo]

I'm struggling to see "venom" in any of the posts. Differing opinions maybe but each to their own I guess, that's what a forums for.

I agree it's great for the manufacturers to be involved and answer questions about their products. However, it has to be appreciated these guys are in it to sell their brand of cabs as well.

[JTUK]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1431802148' post='2775192']
Thanks for the reply....

Although I wasn't taIking about Barefaced cabs at all.

I was referring to the opposite opinions from yourself and Alex over adding or reducing bass and how, from a non-technical viewpoint, you would prove yourself to be correct and Alex wrong. To me, your reply to Alex wasn't helpful as there were no facts or counter argument.

To be honest, I was being a bit mischievous because I didn't believe you could do it.

The fact that I'm a long term Barefaced user has no bearing on this for me either. I also use other cabs and I'm open minded to new innovations - but the engineer in me tends to lead me to wanting to know the technical details more than a persons subjective opinion alone.

I read a post recently where a Compact owner said his Compact struggled when powered by his 200 watt amp. The fact is, the amp was struggling, not the cab.

So there you have an example of where having technical knowledge is hugely beneficial. Keep the cab and buy a new amp, not the other way around.

I've noticed this myself when powering my Compact with my Mesa Walkabout - if you demand too much the Walkabout starts to overdrive rather than give more volume. That doesn't happen with my Streamliner 900 though, it just gives me higher volume for those (very rare) occasions when I need that it.

I still believe technical specifications are important, in conjunction with subjective listening, preferably on a gig.

That's a long post for me.

Frank.
[/quote]

It is far more than that.. so many guys here seem to think this is all guru stuff and whilst I'll appreciate
some guys are very talented in that regard, my opinion is that there are way more sorted people on this
thread when it comes to sound and specifically bass, let alone out there making cabs. And to me, the proof
of that is in the product.
If you guys continue to trade in them on here, they have a market...and that is fine.
The reason I pop up and tend to comment is because there are foreever so many threads about them..
It's almost co-ordinated
I don't think it should be accepted that bass cabs starts and end there...which may be the impression a newbie might get.

[mcnach]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1431860447' post='2775604']
I agree it's great for the manufacturers to be involved and answer questions about their products. However, it has to be appreciated these guys are in it to sell their brand of cabs as well.
[/quote]

No doubt, they are not impartial. But you have to give credit to the individuals to not be entirely dumb and to know that.
If a manufacturer tells me their products are the best, I'll smile politely but I *know* they're not impartial, even if they're not trying to push their product, they may just be enthusiastic about it... whichever way, they cannot be impartial. We all know that. So we filter what we hear according to the source and we make our own judgements.
Now, filtering does not mean discarding. It just means considering the source and their possible bias.
That works here and everywhere, every day.

When you get someone throwing darts at the contributing manufacturer of product X, the first time may be ok... but it is not constructive when they insist, and I can see how can that easily push someone away from this forum. They may feel smug about it, but the truth is they will not be missing anything (except an easy target) yet for those who appreciate the contributions of that person, it would be a negative outcome.
With our particular current example, if you pay attention you'll notice that the contribution of this manufacturer is not restricted to speaking highly about their products.

Being critical is one thing, and a very good thing. But when your contribution is just based on attacking that one person, the one who makes that specific product, you have to ask yourself what your goal is.
If your goal is balanced discussion, then discuss the product, that's great. I personally don't mind when someone professes their utter dislike for something I happen to love. It's just a tool... an instrument, an effects pedal, a speaker... Their negative opinion won't change my world. It's ok. It's cool. I mean, if I wanted to hear only how wonderful X is, I'd go to the EBMM forum or something like that Not my thing. However, if your goal is annoy the contributing manufacturer of product X... then, kindly, just piss off and find something else to do. Don't spoil it for those who do want the participation of that manufacturer, please.

Some critics of BF are very vocal, and they have reasons why they don't like the products. I find that interesting to hear about and it's something good to find when you do a search for a particular item that you think might be interesting to buy. You want to hear the good and the bad. But just like "fanbois" are a pain in the butt, so are "hatebois". Even then, hate the product, I don't care, but don't "go for the man". That's not cool. You may not want to hear what that person says, but others do. You have a choice to roll your eyes, throw your little sarcastic dart from time to time and stay away. Please don't remove the choice other people have to want hear what that person says. If you push that person away, in such a petty manner, you're removing that choice from those who want to hear their contributions. That's not cool.

We have pushed other people away in the past. Do we need to keep doing it? Don't we learn anything?

[mcnach]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1431862331' post='2775619']
It is far more than that.. so many guys here seem to think this is all guru stuff and whilst I'll appreciate
some guys are very talented in that regard, my opinion is that there are way more sorted people on this
thread when it comes to sound and specifically bass, let alone out there making cabs. And to me, the proof
of that is in the product.
If you guys continue to trade in them on here, they have a market...and that is fine.
The reason I pop up and tend to comment is because there are foreever so many threads about them..
It's almost co-ordinated
I don't think it should be accepted that bass cabs starts and end there...which may be the impression a newbie might get.
[/quote]

... and you have been very vocal about it, yet -in my opinion- generally constructively.
If I were a newbie who just heard about BF and wanted to find more info, I'd like to hear from the likes of you as well as those who do like BF.
That is ok.

[fretmeister]

I'm not convinced by the 'guru' argument.

Of course we all have different requirements in a bass sound and that is a matter of personal taste / preference.

But the rest - the 'easier to reduce bass than to add it' type argument - personal preference / taste etc has nothing to do with it. It's physics and maths.

Either the numbers add up or they don't. The position stated "easier to reduce bass..." is not a comment on quality of sound or whether the sound will be liked by an individual customer. It's simply a scientific question that has a calculable answer.

It reminds me a lot of youtube rants about everything from vaccinations to homeopathy to evolution and it always comes down to a straight fight between someone who has a calculator and someone who doesn't, or doesn't know how to use it. Or refuses to use it because it interferes with a cherished and long held world-view.

Personal incredulity is not evidence. Personal experience is not evidence.

In an engineering problem the answers are in the numbers. Nowhere else.

[largo]

From a scientific approach, surely it's just as easy to add or subtract bass although we'd need to know the definition of bass.

So long as the cabs aren't a limiting factor, then personally, I'd rather start with too little bass in my sound and add some until it's what I want to hear. Again personally, I think too much bass overpowers everything and causes stuff to vibrate & rattle hence why I start with less and work up. Others, I'm sure would rather start with too much bass and reduce until it's what they are happy with.

Back to the original poster...

If you want smaller cabs and happy to make 2 trips instead of one then I'd consider the BF Super Compacts as an option. However, if the idea is to carry in one trip I think 2 Compacts would be more awkward than carrying the single CN212 and so would stick with what you have. Just my opinion however.

[stevie]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1431816762' post='2775341']
are you serious???
[/quote]

Why wouldn't I be serious? That's one of the non-acceptable posting behaviours that will get you banned on Talkbass. As Alex is banned, it's not unreasonable to assume that might be why. Don't you agree?

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1431816762' post='2775341']
if someone posts about a product of brand X, and the head of brand X joins the discussion, isn't that something good?
well, except for those who dislike brand X.
[/quote]

Well that depends on what the head of brand X says. The Talkbass commercial user policy also prohibits: "comments on the products/services/character of competition (unless it is praise or recommendation)." So I don't think the head of brand X joining the discussion and slagging off the competition is something good, no.

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1431816762' post='2775341']
Here's a thought, how about you leave those who like brand X in peace and not try to piss off the guy (head of brand X) whose contributions are appreciated by others?
[/quote]

Here's another thought. Why don't you have another scotch and let the mods decide what is permissible or not? (By the way, telling somebody to piss off will also get you banned from Talkbass and I trust it has caused one of the mods here to have a gentle word in your ear). Why should the head of brand X be pissed off? He doesn't even take the ban seriously. And by the way, I didn't bring this subject up, I just asked the head of brand X (do we have to play this game?) why he was banned.

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1431816762' post='2775341']
Stop trying to sabotage other people's enjoyment and let them be, ffs.
[/quote]

Are you serious???

[stevie]

I hear Merton gently waking from his snooze.........

[JTUK]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1431865961' post='2775663']
I'm not convinced by the 'guru' argument.

Of course we all have different requirements in a bass sound and that is a matter of personal taste / preference.

But the rest - the 'easier to reduce bass than to add it' type argument - personal preference / taste etc has nothing to do with it. It's physics and maths.

Either the numbers add up or they don't. The position stated "easier to reduce bass..." is not a comment on quality of sound or whether the sound will be liked by an individual customer. It's simply a scientific question that has a calculable answer.

It reminds me a lot of youtube rants about everything from vaccinations to homeopathy to evolution and it always comes down to a straight fight between someone who has a calculator and someone who doesn't, or doesn't know how to use it. Or refuses to use it because it interferes with a cherished and long held world-view.

Personal incredulity is not evidence. Personal experience is not evidence.

In an engineering problem the answers are in the numbers. Nowhere else.
[/quote]

I think it depends where you start from and where you need to get.
In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter too much down the pub
but even then, you'll find plenty of people who need to learn a few basics...IMHO.
But, by the same token, if a market demands a certain bias, then that is ok as well.
That isn't educating anything... it is supplying a demand, but don't confuse that
with the end goal..
Again, IMO... I don't really care if people don't get it. If you are happy with your sound, then
that is your main thing.

[mcnach]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1431874806' post='2775761']
Are you serious???
[/quote]

Yawn. Yes, I am.
I explained why a bit better in a subsequent post.

What has TalkBass got to do with anything? I was not there. I'm talking about what I have seen in this forum.

If you don't get it or think it does not matter, there's little more I can do... I don't get why you get a thrill out of behaving this way either. Another one of life's mysteries, I suppose, but not one I'm going to lose sleep over.

[stevie]

McNach, your subsequent post was a rant in which you told me (I assume it was me, though you didn't actually say so) to piss off. I'm not going to dignify that with a response. If you missed the relevance of Talkbass to my ealier post – the one that you commented on – then I also give up, as I haven't a clue what you're getting at.

I would just mention that I have always found your posts on here interesting and informative. Are you sure you are the real McNach?

[Merton]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1431874926' post='2775763']
I hear Merton gently waking from his snooze.........
[/quote]

No you don't, I'm just snoring loudly

Edited May 17, 2015 by Merton

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1431874926' post='2775763']
I hear Merton gently waking from his snooze.........
[/quote]

With comments like that it would be hard to argue that you're not just trolling for reactions.

[stevie]

It was an innocuous lighthearted remark for goodness sakes!!! Merton took it in the spirit in which it was intended. What's up with everyone today?

By the way, that was probably the politest trolling accusation I've ever heard......

Edited May 17, 2015 by stevie

[Merton]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1431879374' post='2775819']
What's up with everyone today?
[/quote]

Arsenal are losing, it's upsetting people

[funky8884]

Heads Berg

Tails BF

[stevie]

[quote name='Merton' timestamp='1431880103' post='2775831']
Arsenal are losing, it's upsetting people
[/quote]

Well they're playing a proper team, what do they expect?

[stevie]

I'm now waiting for MoonBassAlpha to ask us what this has to do with the discussion. I must get some work done.......

[Merton]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1431880469' post='2775838']


Well they're playing a proper team, what do they expect?
[/quote]



I was hoping for a repeat of the FA Cup match result :'(

Edit - there's still hope.....

Edited May 17, 2015 by Merton

[funkle]

[quote name='goonerjoe' timestamp='1431281086' post='2769570']
[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]Hi all,[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]My current set up is a fender P into a Orange TB500 via Sansamp BDDI… While I'm delighted with the sound of the cab, my main issue is I live in a 4th floor flat and my usual rehearsal space is also on the 3rd floor of an office block. The Berg is relatively light… but can be awkward to carry down narrow stairs (or just loads of stairs for that matter).[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]I've been looking at the Barefaced website, particularly at the super Compact cabs…The plan is to buy two, use one for rehearsals and smaller gigs and both cabs for larger shows. Will one of these be able to handle the job of the OBT500, or would i always need to use both? [/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]Finally, can anyone tell me how the Barefaced cabs in general compare with the Berg's, in terms of build quality and any other general observations/comparisons.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]Or should I suck it up, stop being a wimp and appreciate the CN212? [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]I can sense some GAS bubbling away! [/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]Cheers.[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

Responding to the OP:

Having owned the BF BB2 and the Berg CN112 x 2, I will offer some thoughts. I have owned other flat cabs like the Acme B1 and B2, as well as the 'flat' powered Berg IP112ER.

The BB2 could apparently be made to sound like the Super Compact by turning down the horn. The BB2 with the horn up was a reasonably flat and super sweet in the highs, and it was gorgeously old school with the horn down. I liked it a lot, and it had pretty good treble extension from the cone even when the horn was turned down. It was light, it was sensitive to power. I didn't like the paint job or the corners, or the external handle. It still felt tough as boots though. It had plenty of lows when EQ'd, though less than the IP112ER, but a little more than the CN112. It likely was a one cab solution for most situations. It was a fairly sizeable and slightly bulky cab for a 1x12, but that is part of good engineering for the driver. I don't like how slot ports look either, but that is just my taste.

The CN112 (x2) I currently run is quite different. An individual CN112 has good lows for the E and is just a tad shy on a B, which EQ boost can sort if desired. I worked out the -3db point as probably being around 62hz - ish, after I took the cab apart and worked out the internal volume. The driver is probably the Faital 12PR300. It is a loud cab, mainly because it is sensitive in the mids. It has the typical tweeter response, not as sweet as the BB2. There doesn't seem to be much of a gap between the top of the driver's frequency response and where the tweeter kicks in, at least on axis. It is not flat at all in its overall response, and I didn't like that at home, but I love it on the gig. I can overdrive it if I wallop it with power, which I could never manage with the BB2. Each CN112 cab is very light, looks great, not bulky, and easy to manage around doors and stairs with the flush handles. They do look better than the BF cabs, but are clearly engineered for a totally different goal.

1x CN112 handles all my little jazz gigs with plenty of volume and enough lows. Some small rooms it can be too much in the lows, which just shows you how real world rooms emphasise some bass frequencies unpredictably. Other rooms I like to make sure I am near a wall to boost bass a little.

2 x CN112 is louder than I will ever need at full steam, sounds fabulous in the lows, and has the typical snap of the tweeters. I usually turn one of them off. I love it when I get to play through both. I assume a CN212 sounds similar.

I think the CN212 you already have is an excellent and typically 'bass guitar' voiced 1 cab solution. The drivers are pretty decent (though not technically as good in terms of Vd, power handling, and distortion levels at volume as the ones in the BF Super Compact/BB2 or I suspect the Vanderkley MNT112).

1 BF Super Compact will sound quite different to the CN212 and I think will be less loud at max power handling. But it will be a lot lighter in weight and cleaner at high power levels as it is engineered differently. Alex's Super Compact cabs are correctly sized to get the most out of the drivers that are in them, from what I understand.

Make of that stream of consciousness what you will. Best of luck.

Pete

Edited May 18, 2015 by funkle