Why are singers (generally) averse to lessons/instruction ?

[Coilte]

The band I am with have recently been on the look out for a new vocalist. So far we have tried out three without success. Generally the reasons why we turned them down was for singing flat along with phrasing and timing. I regard the human voice as being like a musical instrument that requires instruction on how to be "played". The above IMO are basic flaws that could easily be rectified with the help of a few lessons.

I am sure that most of us on here have taken some kind of lessons or instruction, be it from a teacher, a book or the Internet etc. both for our own enjoyment as well as to keep on improving. However, in my experience (quite apart from this current band) singers seem to rely on being "a natural". Generally this turns out not to be the case.

We are not looking for a Tom Jones or Janis Joplin, just someone who can at least hold their own.

Have I just been unlucky, or have others had a similar experience ?

[Bradwell]

There's plenty of that attitude with guitarists too, especially when they play by ear and have little interest in learning theory. Personally I think that's a load of **** and many musicians use it as an excuse for their own lazy attitude.

If you need to confront people about where they're singing is flat, out of time etc. then it may be worth recording the audition so you can point things out and suggest tuition in those areas - what they hear whilst singing will be different to what you or the audience hears. Keep it even handed though and praise them on positive aspects of their singing, it should be constructive.

Keep looking and I'm sure someone decent will turn up.

[discreet]

I've had a similar experience and class vocalists along with keyboard players. Take that as you will. You are dead right that the human voice needs to be developed and trained if it is to be used as an instrument. It requires at least as much time and effort to learn to sing as it does to play any other instrument, if not more so.

A disappointing number of singers I've had the misfortune to meet have not bothered to do this. Why? Because they are deluded, narcissistic chancers who believe they have God-given talent and you should think yourself lucky to be in the same room as them. I think they are worthless, feckless, lazy bastards who should be lashed until they drop. These are just opinions, of course.

Edited May 11, 2015 by discreet

[Coilte]

[quote name='Bradwell' timestamp='1431350600' post='2770260']
There's plenty of that attitude with guitarists too, especially when they play by ear and have little interest in learning theory. Personally I think that's a load of **** and many musicians use it as an excuse for their own lazy attitude.

If you need to confront people about where they're singing is flat, out of time etc. then it may be worth recording the audition so you can point things out and suggest tuition in those areas - what they hear whilst singing will be different to what you or the audience hears. Keep it even handed though and praise them on positive aspects of their singing, it should be constructive.

Keep looking and I'm sure someone decent will turn up.
[/quote]


Thanks for your input. Actually we do record a few songs from each rehearsal just to get an idea of how we might sound to potential punters. We recorded the three auditions and only after listening back to the recordings, did we come to our decision.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Coilte

[ColinB]

We're blessed with an absolutely fabulous singer.... and she still has lessons because she wants to be even better. She records all our rehearsals so she can listen back to herself to pick up any points for improvement.

Edited May 11, 2015 by ColinB

[Coilte]

[quote name='ColinB' timestamp='1431350965' post='2770270']
We're blessed with an absolutely fabulous singer.... and she still has lessons because she wants to be even better. She records all our rehearsals so she can listen back to herself to pick up any points for improvement.
[/quote]

A rare find indeed.

[spectoremg]

I've always found that crap singers get short shrift.
I must say that Rush oughta play back some of their 2015 tour...

[discreet]

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1431351931' post='2770308']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I've always found that crap singers get short shrift.[/font][/color]
I must say that Rush oughta play back some of their 2015 tour...
[/quote]

They should definitely get another singer. Leaving whatsisname to concentrate on his bass playing...

[Left Foot]

Are you playing covers? I don't think a lot of people are that bothered about sounding like other singers tbh, I can understand why to. Imagine having to sound like 20 different singers in one set, and then having them play you a recording when you decide you wanna try something different - fun huh.

[yorks5stringer]

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1431351931' post='2770308']
I've always found that crap singers get short shrift.
I must say that Rush oughta play back some of their 2015 tour...
[/quote]

Maybe they won't be in a rush to do that?

[discreet]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1431357884' post='2770419']
Maybe they won't be in a rush to do that?
[/quote]

Oof, even I think that's bad.

[dadofsix]

As a singer, I find that I have to sing all the time or my vocal endurence wanes -- both with the throat and with the lungs. Throat training in the car while driving, then, for diaphragm training, weird scales, singing along with favorite tunes at the house, singing to tunes that forces me to reach beyond what I'm comfortable with, the whole enchilada. My voice is a tool, just like my bass guitars are tools. I absolutely hate working with someone who sounds good for three or four songs and then begins to "gravel up" because they've "lost their wind" and have flabby throat muscles. It's just damned unprofessional IMHO.

<><Peace

[redbandit599]

We recently got a new singer she is classically trained but loves her hard rock stuff, so we've got an operatic warbler doing Metallica, sounds good to us!

But, wow, what a revelation it is to play with a singer who really knows what she's doing. She's always picking out bits, and analysing as she sings. She can also converse in terms of timing and phrasing and asks us what key stuff is in etc. Never had any of that before.

To the OP, I'd get down your local operatic society and see if there's anyone down there who fancies a go at what you do.

I'm wondering if there is a difference here between blokes and girls too, do more girls learn the trade and blokes rely on being a 'natural?'

[dadofsix]

I think anytime a girl ventures into what is unfairly deemed "man's work" they ALWAYS try harder. It's not fair, but, more often than not, it makes them shine.

<><Peace

[JTUK]

It is a hard skill and at a local level I think singers fall into two zones..
One is that they front the band well, and this goes quite far in connecting with the audience and
the other is that they sing well but don't front well.
Depending on your definition of outstanding, I think singing very well...with good tone and edge
in the voice, is most likely beyond most bands. Around here, the very good vox in a band is very few
and far between, certainly in pub bands, and is sometimes almost an afterthought. Listening to the
quality of the P.A is a case in point here.
The only thing I would do is emphasize to the vox that pitch is very important to your band
and if you've rejected anyone, then tell them why so they can go and work on it..
I'd throw out the 'stat' that around here, 75% of the bands have vocals that are lacking...but I'd
include in that figure singers that don't know the extent of their range and sing in tune until they
try and go for notes they can't get. So, know your limits as a good vox will not hit bum notes as they
should know they can't reach it. That is just basic ears, IMO.

Popular around here, good band, dodgy vox..and it is often pretty true. I'm not sure what lessons would do to improve
this as I'm sure they don't sing off pitch on purpose. However, I do think a lot of singers should go for lessons
if only to help preserve what they've got for longer. Most singers that have been singing for 20 years or so, have lost at least
a tone in range..??

[RickyV]

Instruction and lessons are one thing. A bit of practice in between rehearsals wouldn't go amiss with our singer! I dont think we are asking for too much there are we?!!

[Lozz196]

We`re lucky in that our singer can both sing well, and is aware of his limitations, so doesn`t try and do what he can`t. On the punk scene there are many bands where the singers aren`t that hot, but being punk they get away with it as no-one expects an amazing singer. Luckily our singer isn`t one of them - though I hate giving him praise, his head will become too big to fit through the door.

[discreet]

[quote name='RickyV' timestamp='1431369964' post='2770638']
A bit of practice in between rehearsals wouldn't go amiss with our singer! I don't think we are asking for too much there are we?!!
[/quote]

That's the other thing - singers that won't learn how to sing inevitably can't be bothered to learn lyrics, either - I hate it when singers don't know the words and then either bluff it through by mumbling, or make up words as they go along. The worst one I've seen is a singer blatantly reading lyrics from a phone at a gig, which looks so bloody bad you can hardly believe it! Lazy, lazy, feckless bastards!!

Edited May 11, 2015 by discreet

[JTUK]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1431371865' post='2770670']
That's the other thing - singers that won't learn how to sing inevitably can't be bothered to learn lyrics, either - I hate it when singers don't know the words and then either bluff it through by mumbling, or make up words as they go along. The worst one I've seen is a singer blatantly reading lyrics from a phone at a gig, which looks so bloody bad you can hardly believe it! Lazy, lazy, feckless bastards!!
[/quote]

Music stands..?????

My pet thing is that vocals don't have a warm up regime... and I know very very few who do that.
The ones that do are deffo a class apart but they don't work the normal gigs as they are in too much demand.

I wouldn't use a drummer or gtr etc etc ..who didn't keep his playing regime up so why do Vox think they can do it..??

[discreet]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1431372304' post='2770679']
Music stands..?????
[/quote]

My views on music stands are well-known!

[Coilte]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1431371865' post='2770670']
That's the other thing - singers that won't learn how to sing inevitably can't be bothered to learn lyrics, either - I hate it when singers don't know the words and then either bluff it through by mumbling, or make up words as they go along. The worst one I've seen is a singer blatantly reading lyrics from a phone at a gig, which looks so bloody bad you can hardly believe it! Lazy, lazy, feckless bastards!!
[/quote]



I have seen singers making up or fumbling their way through the lyrics...[i]and [/i]singing flat !!! In a way, you cant blame the singer entirely. The rest of the band share a responsibility for taking him/her into the band in the first place.

My point in this thread is that they are (...or supposed to be..) musicians too. So why is it that generally they either dont seem to care, or notice that their contribution to the band is not what it should be ? While there are no hard and fast rules, IME singers seem to be the worst offenders when it comes to being on top of their game.

[discreet]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1431375239' post='2770728']
...why is it that generally they either dont seem to care, or notice that their contribution to the band is not what it should be? While there are no hard and fast rules, IME singers seem to be the worst offenders when it comes to being on top of their game.
[/quote]

Some singers seem to have the attitude that if they've turned up at all you should be grateful. And while I'm on, what's with all this carrying around scraps of paper and tatty notebooks with lyrics written down? Is it to make them look important? I've taken the trouble to learn my bass lines well enough that I don't have to consult any literature while I'm playing, so why do vocalists think that it's OK to peer myopically through their bifocals at their spidery handwriting when singing? This is bad enough at rehearsal (they should have learned their crap at home, rehearsal isn't for learning stuff), but when they do it at gigs (whether it's my band or not) it makes me want to punch them! AND ANOTHER THING, they can't (or won't) count bars, either! They routinely come in too late or too fricking early, or not at all! THEY'RE NOT PROPER BLOODY MUSICIANS! Stupid fecking worthless unprofessional bastards!! They must be lashed!! There, I've said it.

Edited May 11, 2015 by discreet

[Marvin]

I've only been in a band with one singer that I would describe as a musician. She'd clearly practice between rehearsals, learnt all the words, didn't use a music stand ever and learnt guitar parts...and she had a cracking voice.

All the others have turned up to practices with words printed off the Internet and blag their way through the session. Between practices no effort is made to exercise the voice or learn material.

singers are the worst offenders but there are plenty of guitarists and drummers who do the same

[gjones]

I know many singers that, even when they have the evidence of a recording, can't hear that they're singing flat.

Edited May 11, 2015 by gjones

[spectoremg]

...and another thing; who'd be the obvious candidate for buying and humping the PA? Never the singer apparently. (transport's usually optional too).