Can someone please explain...

[BOD2]

I'm not a metal band player but perhaps you can take an example from a cliched rock classic.

"Smoke On the Water" - Deep Purple.

The guitar and keyboard play the famous cliched riff together. The bass, however, pounds out a solid G under the riff only changing with a "twiddly bit" at the end of the riff. So the bass and the guitar are playing completely different things - no "following" going on there.

Sometimes you can use this "tool" to bring contrast into a piece. Trying playing the same single note under part of the riff(say for 3 out of 4 repetitions of the riff) then play the riff in unison with the guitar on the 4th repetition, but an octave lower.

Also, staying on the same bass note when the guitar changes to a different chord (provided the two don't clash) can create a real tension in a song - AC/DC often do this in a chorus.

Identify a few "tools" like those above then play around with how you might place them in a song.

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote].. how the hell I'm supposed to 'not follow the guitar'? I've been working with riffs sent over from my guitarist and apparently everything is following the guitar.. no matter how different I try to make it???? Surely the whole point of bass is to hold down the root note (with added flair and pizazz )....
it's doing my head in and really frustrating me as it's making me feel like a sh*t bassist!!! Grrrrrr![/quote]

Hey Sarah,

At times, you'll literally bounce ideas off the guitarist & others off the drummer. I prefer to link with the drummer personally [said drummer tends to mimic and predict my fills & I do the same!], but I do play 'tag' with our guitarist as well. (Anything you can do, etc...) There are no set rules to how the band gels. Just let it happen naturally. You'll find a mix & general sound of your liking soon enough Also, remember that there will also be times when you can only lay something simple like root notes down. In such cases, we sparkle with our artistic fills.

Rich.

Edited August 25, 2008 by OutToPlayJazz

[Sibob]

This has nothing to do with want you want to play or what your guitarist want you to play (or rather it shouldn't), it's got to do with what the song NEEDS. If a particular section requires a unison riff to sound heavy, then one shouldn't deviate it because you will lose that 'oomf'. What I do if i can't figure out a decent line for a section that requires a bit more movement or harmonic content is to simply hum what I think would sound cool, then move that onto the bass.

The best one guitar metal band I can think of to listen for ideas is Mudvayne, Ryan is a monster player, knows when to fill sonic space and knows when to just kick back and riff with the guitar!

+1 for uploading the guitar riffs here though!

Si

[skankdelvar]

+1 on posting the audio. Go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on!

[NeonMig]

[quote name='Sarah5string' post='268886' date='Aug 24 2008, 04:36 PM'].. how the hell I'm supposed to 'not follow the guitar'? I've been working with riffs sent over from my guitarist and apparently everything is following the guitar.. no matter how different I try to make it???? Surely the whole point of bass is to hold down the root note (with added flair and pizazz )....
it's doing my head in and really frustrating me as it's making me feel like a sh*t bassist!!! Grrrrrr![/quote]

You "don't follow the guitar" like this:

[Sarah5string]

[quote name='bassman2790' post='269075' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:14 PM']An interesting experiment would be to post the recording of the guitar riff on here and see what everyone else would put to it. [/quote]
lol how would I do that?

[Jase]

Tell your guitarist to mind his own business, you know what you're doing and to stay out of your frequencies, they always want to the bass player to play what they think it should be. They're a pain generally and should only be allowed out under supervision.

[Ou7shined]

Some great advice here 'specially the early Geezer Butler stuff. Check out how he holds a groove but sticks to his own (mainly simple pentatonic) riffs but then he and Tony join forces for the main riff parts. Classic stuff.
Also the bit about listening to the music then humming out a bass line - that's probably what I do although on the fly while I'm playing.

In one band I play in I'm the primary riff-comer-upper-wither and it can bug me a bit when the guitars follow exactly what I'm playing so what I try to do is write the riff then come up with a separate loose guitar part or harmony and give it to them and tell them to work out something based on that (sometimes I just give them the guitar part and keep the good stuff for myself ) If your guitarist is worth his salt he should be able to help you out like that too instead of dishing out sketchy advice on your playing style.

Edited August 26, 2008 by Ou7shined

[LukeFRC]

you are playing the thing.
you have 2 perfectly good ears.
you have fingers.
work out where the combination of your bass and fingers sounds best.
ignore whatever your guitarist says.

really guitaists can be idiots who think that because they know a few major and pentatonic scales (wooooo!) they have the god given right to know everything about what the music should be doing. but hey play what you think sounds good, practice, learn all the theory crap at your own pace and become your own player- its more fun that way.
cos thats what its about.


and really if you are going to listen to anyone listen to the drummer and try and lock with his/her timing. A bassline root notes played in time and with rhythm will sound way better than some 'guitarists bass line' going all over the scale but out of time slightly.

I have found if you give a guitist a bass they can show iff on it as they know the scale patterns. they can make it sound cool. but the moment you ask them to play abass in a band then they dont have a clue how to play in time or simply.

[The Funk]

Ask the guitarist to either be more specific and hum the type of line he wants or to shut up and work on his rhythm.

[joe_bass]

[quote name='Sibob' post='269436' date='Aug 25 2008, 12:28 PM']What I do if i can't figure out a decent line for a section that requires a bit more movement or harmonic content is to simply hum what I think would sound cool, then move that onto the bass.

The best one guitar metal band I can think of to listen for ideas is Mudvayne, Ryan is a monster player, knows when to fill sonic space and knows when to just kick back and riff with the guitar![/quote]


Yep the humming idea can be very useful.

Another Mudvayne fan!! I've never seen a mention for Ryan on here before. Nice to know I'm not the only one!!

[Sibob]

I think it's important to remember that it's difficult to give specific advice without actually hearing what you're writing a bass line for.

It's all very well slating guitarists and taring them all with the same brush, but what if he's simply giving you his opinion about how you can make the song better!?
So while I concede that there are some egotistical guitarists out there who know very little about taste and good song-writing, I have to say that most that I work with are creative, friendly and really know what sounds good!

Si

[Sarah5string]

I would post up an example but I don't know how!

[BassMunkee]

Fortunately my band is composed entirely of machines - (except me, probably) - however what may help technique-wise is this:
Stand your bass guitar on end with the neck pointing [b]up[/b].
Hold the neck in both hands, bracing one hand [b]slightly lower down[/b] the neck than the other.
Swing the bass up and round your head, [b]into the back of the guitarist's[/b], ensuring that you follow through.
Power down your swing and rest your bass [b]firmly and squarely[/b] in the small of your guitarist's back, shouting:
[i]"How do you like them onions you poncey little oik!"[/i]
A swift kick in the [b]happy sack[/b] is optional, but satisfying at this juncture.

[Sarah5string]

[quote name='BassMunkee' post='270110' date='Aug 26 2008, 11:31 AM']Fortunately my band is composed entirely of machines - (except me, probably) - however what may help technique-wise is this:
Stand your bass guitar on end with the neck pointing [b]up[/b].
Hold the neck in both hands, bracing one hand [b]slightly lower down[/b] the neck than the other.
Swing the bass up and round your head, [b]into the back of the guitarist's[/b], ensuring that you follow through.
Power down your swing and rest your bass [b]firmly and squarely[/b] in the small of your guitarist's back, shouting:
[i]"How do you like them onions you poncey little oik!"[/i]
A swift kick in the [b]happy sack[/b] is optional, but satisfying at this juncture.[/quote]
Like it

[Tee]

I follow one rule. Do what's right for the song.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Sarah5string' post='270084' date='Aug 26 2008, 10:55 AM']I would post up an example but I don't know how![/quote]
What format have you got the clips in?
You are allowed to add a 25MB attachment to your posts here. Hopefully this random .wav will work.

[Ou7shined]

Yay it worked!

[lowhand_mike]

from what i have recently learnt (and its not much ) play the root and use the scale to move to the next chord change say the 3rd and 5th of the scale (if it fits that is) and then say for the chorus follow the guitar to strengthen that. if that works then you can start adding to you root stuff

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='270140' date='Aug 26 2008, 12:13 PM']What format have you got the clips in?
You are allowed to add a 25MB attachment to your posts here. Hopefully this random .wav will work.[/quote]
genius

[Sarah5string]

Oooooooh didn't know you could do this! Well here you go. Here's the example. Excuse the quality as I was literally just fiddling around with his riff (Fnar!) in audacity so it's not great quality/very accurate. But you get the idea.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='Sarah5string' post='270149' date='Aug 26 2008, 12:23 PM']Oooooooh didn't know you could do this! Well here you go. Here's the example. Excuse the quality as I was literally just fiddling around with his riff (Fnar!) in audacity so it's not great quality/very accurate. But you get the idea.[/quote]
sounds great to me (timing aside) so is that what he is complaining about as to me it complements it well

[Sarah5string]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='270155' date='Aug 26 2008, 12:34 PM']sounds great to me (timing aside) so is that what he is complaining about as to me it complements it well[/quote]
Yea I know about the timing. Was just a mere brainstorming play along. Will obviously rerecord it better if I use it lol!!

[alexclaber]

I don't have an easy way of getting a recording up here quickly but here's the kind of thing I might play over the first riff:

(d=staccato 8th note, D=legato 8th note, _=sustain for another 8th note, -=rest)

d D d D - D F C
d D d D F F# G_

Does that make sense?

Alex

[Sarah5string]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='270162' date='Aug 26 2008, 12:39 PM']I don't have an easy way of getting a recording up here quickly but here's the kind of thing I might play over the first riff:

(d=staccato 8th note, D=legato 8th note, _=sustain for another 8th note, -=rest)

d D d D - D F C
d D d D F F# G_

Does that make sense?

Alex[/quote]
Could you put it in tab form? lol I'm a thicket..