Tuner...does anyone use one in practice time?

[lowlandtrees]

Been playing for a couple of years. In the beginning I used the tuner for a couple of months to help my intonation. I moved on to other stuff for a while. Recently I decided to improve my arco and went back to the tuner. Whilst it has been a very useful exercise, I have discovered that my intonation has been very off (according to the tuner).....and I am struggling to bring it up to the line on every note. I played in a small band for a while and didn t get complaints although at one gig someone commented that the guitarist was out...on retro I am wondering if it was myself that was out.
So my question to you experienced players is are you bang on in tune with your tuner when you play? Is this something to just aspire to and to not get too concerned about?

[JoeEvans]

My tuner (and I suspect most tuners) can't keep up with general playing - it takes half a second or so to respond to a note. So it's not much use while actually playing. However, I do sometimes use it for exercises - I do one when I'm playing scales, where I stop at a random note, hold it and check that I'm in tune. I also do another one where I play a phrase right at the top of the neck (e.g. A-B-C on the A string with an open string for the A), then jump to repeat it an octave up, either on the same string or on the next higher string, and I hold the last note to check that I jumped to the right place.

[Bilbo]

I use it occasionally just as a reference but I have the same problem. My intonation is shaky to say the least.

[Guest bassman7755]

I guess its a case of how you use it, try to get the note right without the tuner first. If your intonation is dodgy try to work out if its your hearing or execution that is out i.e. are you "hearing" the right pitch in your head but not executing it accurately OR are you playing the exact pitch you have in your head but your head is wrong. The former will tend to correct naturally over time, the latter is a more pernicious and subtle problem especially as people sometimes have a tendency to hear just intonation at times, personally I find minor thirds (and major thirds to a lesser extent) difficult to nail at times probably because my brain has been poisoned listening/playing too much blues over the years . Bruce arnolds ear training and sight singing courses are great for sharpening your ability to hear pitches accurately.

"[i]you never get a day off from intonation, ever[/i]" - Bilbo

Edited May 23, 2015 by bassman7755

[lowlandtrees]

Poisoned by the Blues. That is a lyric in ma nexsong. I find the tuner useful for the arco but as you all say it takes a second to catch up with the note when playing faster. My ear training is c--p and I would probably benefit fro the Bruce Arnold course. I can see that I have a lot of intonation work ahead. The exercise that Joe mentions would defy me

[JoeEvans]

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] personally I find minor thirds (and major thirds to a lesser extent) difficult to nail at times[/font][/color][/quote]
There's a genuine problem with thirds on unfretted instruments. If you work your way up the harmonics on a single sting, you'll find a harmonic that sounds as a major third. But t's not the same as a major third on a fretted instrument - there's a difference between a 'natural' major third and an equal temperament major third. It's all a bit complex and I can't quite work out how to explain it effectively so google if you're interested, but the upshot is that a major third sounds right if you play it slightly flat, but anyone playing am instrument with fixed intonation will be slightly sharp of you of they play the same note...

[bornagainbass65]

Hi LowlandTrees, I've recently started learning to play an EUB and my intonation is dodgy, to say the least. Have decided that putting dots on the side of the neck is a lesser evil than playing out of tune.

[simonlittle]

Intonation on an upright bass is all about your left hand technique. If your left hand is held properly with the correct spacing then you should be playing in tune. Practising with a bow is the only way you'll really hear your intonation clearly; you can get away with murder playing pizz so practising scales and arpeggios arco will be a big help. Rather than using a tuner, try using the open strings or harmonics as a reference when shifting; if the bass is in tune with itself then you will always find the true spots.
It might be worth having a few classical lessons to nail your technique. I was classically trained and although I hardly ever play classical music for work (or indeed even with a bow!) it has given me a great foundation to build on.
Hope that helps

Edited May 24, 2015 by simonlittle

[lowlandtrees]

Yes I did the dots thing when I first started but what I find happening is that as my left hand technique improves......the dots appear to need moving. I was considering some classical lessons but I am a bit skint as prez. In fact the only teacher local to me is classical. I have the bass strung with nylon slaps at the moment and bowing is a challenge. In saying that I was bowing a couple of songs with a band a couple of weeks ago and it sounded great so want to do more.

[fatback]

Using a tuner clipped to the bridge did wonders for me. I used it only as a reference to spot check and find I hardly need it at all now.
The point about just intonation and all that is important, but maybe not so much when all you're trying to do is get the basics right.

I always say this, and I'm sure y'all yawn, but check out Rabbath's method. Intonation becomes a dream because there's so little arm shifting going on. And instead of learning by marking 'frets' you can learn by marking the thumb positions and practice those three (or four) shifts. If it works for me, it'll work for anybody.

[mtroun]

One method I've come around to recently is using a drone, more reliable than a tuner and helps develop your ears. I use the Bille method book as warm up exercises. Page 44 has a nice shifting exercise (going up and down the major scale on all 4 strings up to the fifth, switching between 1st and (I think, I'm not very technically minded) 3rd positions.
With the fifth ringing out as a drone, you are acutely aware of any issues with your tuning. A nice way to slowly warm up.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1432589409' post='2783129']
I always say this, and I'm sure y'all yawn, but check out Rabbath's method. Intonation becomes a dream because there's so little arm shifting going on. And instead of learning by marking 'frets' you can learn by marking the thumb positions and practice those three (or four) shifts. If it works for me, it'll work for anybody.
[/quote]

I've not looked into Rabbath much - is that the method where you use all four fingers pivoting around the thumb? I think that the Simandl style 1-2-4 fingerings are so ingrained into my playing that it would almost like re-learning the instrument.

[fatback]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1432638249' post='2783390']
I've not looked into Rabbath much - is that the method where you use all four fingers pivoting around the thumb? I think that the Simandl style 1-2-4 fingerings are so ingrained into my playing that it would almost like re-learning the instrument.
[/quote]

Yes, you pivot round the thumb, but you only use three thumb placements (I use four cos of small hands). You don't actually use all four fingers though, as the third always supports the pinkie.

I was lucky in that when I started, and Simandl was driving me crazy, I stumbled on to Rabbath via this:
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54pMdTCmo8g"]https://www.youtube....h?v=54pMdTCmo8g[/url]

It's amazing how intonation just ceases being a problem (as long as you're absolutely rigid about hitting the thumb positions - if you get sloppy with that it's no use.

Edited May 26, 2015 by fatback