The old Squier v Fender debate.....

[Grangur]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1432637434' post='2783383']
In addition to pickup design and preamps as you mention, pickup placement, bridge design, nut type, neck-body join, and other factors could still easily produce differences in sound.

IMHO the only thing that can answer this question is extensive double blind testing of different body woods, with all other factors held constant. It's easy to produce logical sounding arguments of all sorts of things that aren't true.
[/quote]

All true. But based on all the logic and assuming all the basses that come out of Fender's factory are made by machine, have the same pup placement, same strings, same pups etc, why don't they all sound the same?

I guess they could all be set up slightly differently - action etc?

Going on this, I wonder how many basses have been ditched and moved on for want of different strings and a set-up?


PS - Haven't we been here before?

Edited May 26, 2015 by Grangur

[landwomble]

So, say I was interested in buying bits for a DIY precision. Would a solid wood body from a third party be just as good as a 'real'fender? Sounds like so long as it's not blockboard, the answer is "yes" although I guess cosmetically some may be nicer finished thank others?

[Thunderpaws]

Every material has different acoustic and mechanical properties. Every piece of wood has at least a slightly different structure to the next piece of wood. Therefore, they will definitely all transmit the energy from vibrating strings at least a little bit differently. The problem could be that the way the neck is joined, quality of neck pocket, windings on individual pickups, etc... Like, lots of etc.... All combine to make up the sound of your guitar. Some of

[Thunderpaws]

Stoopid phone..... Some of these have bigger weighting over their affect on sound. And human ears are all different, and so are our brains, and sometimes air is more dense, the room might have a carpet, the other room might be a concrete cellar.




[quote name='Thunderpaws' timestamp='1432646919' post='2783535']
Every material has different acoustic and mechanical properties. Every piece of wood has at least a slightly different structure to the next piece of wood. Therefore, they will definitely all transmit the energy from vibrating strings at least a little bit differently. The problem could be that the way the neck is joined, quality of neck pocket, windings on individual pickups, etc... Like, lots of etc.... All combine to make up the sound of your guitar. Some of
[/quote]

[warwickhunt]

I remember talking to a guy some years back who worked for the Fender distributor and he had the chance to try a whole rack of fresh out of the box USA Strats and he ran them through an amp and though they all sounded like a Strat there was the odd one that just sounded better than the others (he bought the best one), same strings pups factory set up etc! I've no answer as to why but would offer the suggestion that it was density (or even lack of) that made the one he chose 'speak' that bit better.

I've certainly owned enough Warwick Streamers to know that all basses are not equal even when set up the same (as near as humanly possible), with the same component parts; I could argue with myself that I may have tried to play the 'prettiest' one better than the others but I doubt that could account for the difference.

[landwomble]

So next logical question - what's the actual difference between MIJ/MIM/MIA Fenders? Or Squiers for that matter? Other than hardware? Is it daft to pay extra for MIA Fender? Or are you just getting a better level of quality control - i.e. chances are that it's going to be made to better tolerances?

I'm looking at P bass kits as I fancy building something, which I'd fit with decent hardware. Was trying to work out if a stewmac body and neck would likely result in something of decent quality...

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Thunderpaws' timestamp='1432647070' post='2783538']
Stoopid phone..... Some of these have bigger weighting over their affect on sound. And human ears are all different, and so are our brains, and sometimes air is more dense, the room might have a carpet, the other room might be a concrete cellar.
[/quote]

There are a lot of things that can alter what a bass sounds like. The question isn't whether or not body wood makes a difference, but whether it makes a significant, audible, difference. And then there's the question of whether the variation within a single species of wood (including how the wood is treated) compares to the average variation across species.

It's similar to MP3 compression. Even at 320kb/s compression, the signal is being considerable changed from the original uncompressed file. The question is whether people can hear the difference between compressed and uncompressed files. Double blind experiments suggest that people can't.

I'm not saying that I definitely believe that body wood doesn't make a significant difference. Just that experiments such as the one that I linked to above make it plausible that it doesn't, and that proper scientific experiments are needed to see what the true answer is.

[chris_b]

[quote name='landwomble' timestamp='1432648879' post='2783559']
So next logical question - what's the actual difference between MIJ/MIM/MIA Fenders? Or Squiers for that matter? Other than hardware?
[/quote]

Not that logical. Each hardware will be more similar than different, depending on the materials used, but [i]every[/i] piece of wood is different, as the previous couple of posts mentioned. Mythological "tests" and popular hearsay are not good reasons on which to base an opinion.

The people who make the more expensive custom basses will have a wood store, look at the factory visits on youtube, and that wood will be chosen with a great deal of care. A mass producer will order a pallet of wood and use it up, whether it is in ideal condition or not.

For instance, Michael Tobias will buy the best he can find and that cost will be passed on. A mass producer will buy and sell to a price point and it's in his interest to make his product as cheaply as he can. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't, eg when Ampeg started using board for their cabs instead of ply.

Many people won't hear any difference. Lucky them. They can save a fortune.

[NJE]

I have owned:

2x American Standard Fenders P and J
1x Fender Japan Jazz Vintage Reissue
2x Overwaters - Progress III and Custom J
2x Musicman Stingrays - 4 and 5 string
2x Fender Roscoe beck V's
1x Squier Silver series Japan
1x Squier Classic Vibe Precision

......and the list goes on. MY POINT (Finally) is that I currently have a £120 Squier Delxue Active Jazz V and a £230 Squier Vintage Modified Precision V, and to be honest apart from a few very minor aesthetic things, I am incredibly happy with them. They sound as good as any other bass I have owned and after a few minutes tweaking actually play better than a lot of my old basses.

The only thing I actually want and need sound wise is a Stingray but the P and J sounds are covered with the Squiers. Its actually quite liberating playing with a cheap bass and I get more comments on them than the guitars that cost over a grand. You also dont tend to worry about them at gigs, unlike my guitarist who has 3k worth of PRS he stresses about.

Get a squier, go enjoy playing and use the extra cash for something else.

[warwickhunt]

On the subject of expensive v cheap, I'd just add that the cheapest instruments tend to have equally low budget electronics (whether passive or more so in active) and signal to noise ratio is 'generally' less of a problem on better quality instruments.

[Harlequin74]

[quote name='NJE' timestamp='1432651344' post='2783588']
I have owned:

2x American Standard Fenders P and J
1x Fender Japan Jazz Vintage Reissue
2x Overwaters - Progress III and Custom J
2x Musicman Stingrays - 4 and 5 string
2x Fender Roscoe beck V's
1x Squier Silver series Japan
1x Squier Classic Vibe Precision

......and the list goes on. MY POINT (Finally) is that I currently have a £120 Squier Delxue Active Jazz V and a £230 Squier Vintage Modified Precision V, and to be honest apart from a few very minor aesthetic things, I am incredibly happy with them. They sound as good as any other bass I have owned and after a few minutes tweaking actually play better than a lot of my old basses.

The only thing I actually want and need sound wise is a Stingray but the P and J sounds are covered with the Squiers. Its actually quite liberating playing with a cheap bass and I get more comments on them than the guitars that cost over a grand. You also dont tend to worry about them at gigs, unlike my guitarist who has 3k worth of PRS he stresses about.

Get a squier, go enjoy playing and use the extra cash for something else.
[/quote]

I reckon that is a close to the truth as you can get. And i, also, have spent alotover the last 30 years on expensive kit.

I think in addition that the general quality of Squiers is well above their price point, and Fenders is well below theirs.

[Harlequin74]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1432652691' post='2783605']
On the subject of expensive v cheap, I'd just add that the cheapest instruments tend to have equally low budget electronics (whether passive or more so in active) and signal to noise ratio is 'generally' less of a problem on better quality instruments.
[/quote]

Very good point! And always worth a few quid to get a luthier to give them the once over... Unless you can do it yourself . Unlike me, to my deep shame!

[mcnach]

[quote name='Harlequin74' timestamp='1432547262' post='2782438']
Sorry to rehash this one, but i really think i am getting a better tone on my £300 quid Squier Jazz 70's bass than my American Fender Deluxe! Especially on the funky , g string , and slap tones.

It must be me..........!

Any therapy gratefully received.
[/quote]


... and why not? Enjoy!!!

I have a Squier with plywood body that I prefer to my Fenders. I did replace pickups and electronics (it has a J-Retro now) 'though. But the neck is fantastic and I love that bass.
However, in general, I have better luck with Fenders than Squiers, but of course there are exceptional Squiers and that's a wonderful thing

[darren]

[quote name='landwomble' timestamp='1432639571' post='2783418']
So, say I was interested in buying bits for a DIY precision. Would a solid wood body from a third party be just as good as a 'real'fender? Sounds like so long as it's not blockboard, the answer is "yes" although I guess cosmetically some may be nicer finished thank others?
[/quote]

I've posted this link elsewhere. This grumpy guy has an interesting take on tone woods http://youtu.be/mVmFlzksMCE

[Telebass]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1432652691' post='2783605']
On the subject of expensive v cheap, I'd just add that the cheapest instruments tend to have equally low budget electronics (whether passive or more so in active) and signal to noise ratio is 'generally' less of a problem on better quality instruments.
[/quote]
On a correctly wired Precision, for example, the quality of the components will have zero effect on s/n ratio. Components just aren't that bad. Actives, maybe. Anither reason not to bother with actives. Cheap components might affect the tone, however. But these days? Less likely than in the past. I no longer bother to swap out Squier wiring unless I manage to break something. I can't hear any difference. If others can, fine, but no audience ever will. We really do obsess way too much about this stuff. Some of these designs really are just about unimprovable. They're too simple to need complex thinking! Just play it...

[Lozz196]

I`ve only ever swapped the electrics out on Squiers not cos I think better quality ones sound better, I`d never hear that. It`s just for me better quality equals less likely to malfunction. You`re right, I do think we over obsess - we all can`t wait to get shiny expensive new basses yet named bands are gigging with MIMs and Squiers and sounding great. Guitarists as well, using Epiphones/MIMs/Squiers, all getting great sounds.

[jezzaboy]

I think that part of the problem is in the 50`s, 60`s and 70`s, there wasnt the abundance of good quality, well priced basses available like we have now and Fender had most of the market. And there wasnt the internet for players to bitch to each other how bad some of those Fenders were.

Now most of us have heard stories of how bad Fender qc can be, although I have never owned a "bad" one. Compare this to the recent Squier models which, on the whole, seem to be very good value compared to their US cousins at around a third of the price. I have a VM77 Jazz bass: it`s great to play and have gigged it several times and will do in the future.

If it sounds and feels good, I don`t give a baboons backside which name is on the headstcok.

Edited May 31, 2015 by jezzaboy

[LayDownThaFunk]

Have you ever come across a bad playing/bad sounding pre CBS Fender? Doesn't exist apparently. Pre MM Stingray that is crap? Doesn't exist apparently. '59 Les Paul that is nothing short of the best LP ever? Doesn't exist apparently.

You see what I'm getting at. Hype. The internet. Mainly the second one. Ignore everything except your hands and ears. I have an early edition Sue Ryder P copy and I'm sure it beats any pre CBS Precision I've ever heard. Repeat that a few times and people start to believe BS like that. True story.

[chris_b]

[quote name='jezzaboy' timestamp='1433106778' post='2787960']
there wasnt the internet for players to bitch to each other how bad some of those Fenders were.

Now most of us have heard stories of how bad Fender qc can be,
[/quote]

Everyone knew about Fender QC and the term pre-CBS was in common use by the end of the 60's. Everyone still bought and played the CBS Fenders because they were still better than the competition, and only a few years later the replacement industry would be offering a solution to any Fender "problem".

But none of that mattered, back then what you played mattered more than what you played it on.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1433110074' post='2787996']
Have you ever come across a bad playing/bad sounding pre CBS Fender? Doesn't exist apparently....
[/quote]

I'm sure they do exist but no-one is going to spend thousands on a pre CBS fender and them come on BC and post about how disapointed they are and what a terrible instrument it is...

[Grangur]

I have a Fender MIM P 2006. Lovely loud output, really punchy and good in the hands, but it's bugging me as the frets aren't level.
I've have 2-3 Squires and never had an issue. So, it's a clear certainty, Squiers are better than Fenders.

After all, my experience proves it, doesn't it?

That's the problem with all of these "comparisons". It always makes me laugh I hear others saying this kind of thing. Comparing less than 10-20 basses is no comparison at all. The sample is too small to ignore the "good/bad luck" factor.

Buy a bass, enjoy it or sell and try again.

[chris_b]

If you see interviews with the top US studio musicians they all seem to prefer and use pre CBS P basses as their first choice in the studio. These guys live in a world where every nuance in their playing is analysed to the nth degree. It's an environment that we will never experience and, looking in from the outside, would find difficult to understand, so if they all think they can find that something extra in a pre CBS bass then I'll believe them.

In my world that type of "finesse" isn't required. I got a couple of compliments on Saturday, which meant more to me than any perfect note I could have played on an all original 57 P bass. If I was playing a Squier I would have been just as chuffed.

Comparisons based on price aren't helpful. If anyone can find a great sounding Squier, if all you can afford is a Squier, if all you aspire to is a Squier, buy it and play it till it falls apart. Spend what you save on lessons or down the pub, but striving to be the best player you can be doesn't depend on the instrument.

I tried to get back on topic!

[lowhand_mike]

i bought my daughter a squire jazz bass package a couple of years ago, i've used it more than she has and have to say the sound out of it is lovely, massive in fact, its one of the affinity range so i dont know where in the squire levels it gets placed but for the money its amazing value, i just struggle to play it a little as i am used to an ibanez neck, not saying there is anything truely horrifying about the neck though i should play it more tbh

[Harlequin74]

[quote name='jezzaboy' timestamp='1433106778' post='2787960']
I think that part of the problem is in the 50`s, 60`s and 70`s, there wasnt the abundance of good quality, well priced basses available like we have now and Fender had most of the market. And there wasnt the internet for players to bitch to each other how bad some of those Fenders were.

Now most of us have heard stories of how bad Fender qc can be, although I have never owned a "bad" one. Compare this to the recent Squier models which, on the whole, seem to be very good value compared to their US cousins at around a third of the price. I have a VM77 Jazz bass: it`s great to play and have gigged it several times and will do in the future.

If it sounds and feels good, I don`t give a baboons backside which name is on the headstcok.
[/quote]

Love this reply! I feel the same way. I bought a Squier Precision VM at the weekend. Beautiful finish, and tone, and plays very sweetly. Have hardly put it down since.....its a bit lighter than i am used to, but with the the big tone it gives thats a good thing right?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Harlequin74