Tried out a few cabs today

[Guinness21]

[color=#141414][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]I finally made the trip down to see Mark at Bass Direct today. I've been shopping for a while now, and tried out a few cabs at Manchester Bass Lounge- including the Markbass 104HF and the Barefaced Super Twin 2. The Markbass was ok, but I was surprised by it; I thought it would be clean like the markbass heads, but the bass was wobbly and it rolled of the highs. Despite what I read about it on here, the Barefaced Super Twin 2 didn't sound like what I hoped/thought it would! It was quite aggressively voiced, with my stingray it was too clicky for my liking [/font][/color]

[color=#141414][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]I went today because he just got the new Bergantino CN410 in stock. I live a few hours away, so wanted to try as much as I could in one visit. I tried out the CN410, along with the Berg CN212 and the Vanderkley 212MNT. [/font][/color]

[color=#141414][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]Tried the CN410 first and was underwhelmed. It has a lot of low end and low mids, but doesn't have the same level of high-end clarity as the CN212. Considering that I was playing my stingray through it, it sounded as if the highs had been rolled off. So I ruled that out. Then I A/B'd the CN212 and the 212MNT. They're both excellent cabs, and there's surprisingly little difference in the sound. I'd read on here that the 212MNT was harsh sounding. Absolutely not true. Just goes to show you shouldn't treat what you read on here as gospel truth, and you really need to hear with your own ears. Because the 212 MNT enclosure is slightly larger, it had a bit more low end to it. This was a little much for my taste with the stingray, whereas the CN 212's punchy low mids complimented my bas perfectly. We have a winner![/font][/color]

[color=#141414][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]I did consider trying a couple of 2x10 cabs, but Mark didn't mince his words and told me there was no point if I didn't like the sound of the 4x10. So the Bergantino CN 212 is the one. Difficult to justify buying one when I'm not in a band, but as soon as I am I'll be getting one of these [/font][/color]

[discreet]

It's very true that sound is subjective and you should listen with your own ears... it's difficult to describe sound in words. But also choosing a cab (or anything else) on the strength of a shop audition can be misleading too. The only place you'll get a proper idea is by using the cab in the situation that you bought it for. So if you're going to gig with it, you should gig with it and then make a decision. This is why Alex at Barefaced does a month-long trial session at the end of which you can send the cab back if you don't like it.

I've proved to myself over and again that how a cab sounds at home, played solo, has no bearing on how it will pan out live with drums and guitars. What sounds middly and nasal (for example) at home could well be the sound you're looking for live and fit in perfectly at a gig.

This makes it difficult to choose a cab to say the least! And of course your mileage may vary and you'll be happy with the CN212. I sincerely hope you are, but felt I must stick my 2 pence-worth in. Again.

Edited June 6, 2015 by discreet

[JTUK]

I'd do the opposite to the above.... if the cab doesn't cut it solo... then I'm not interested trying to get any sort of mileage out it
by burying it in a mix.
I want to hear my bass and everything I do so it is important that the sound I make is nice to my ears and how that fits into the band
is the bands problem as much as any instrument sound would be... or not as the case may be.
My sound will be strong enough to underpin and drive the band and provide bass but also it will dovetail
with the other sounds. The gtr will have to wipe off some bass off his tone and the keys will have to keep their
left hand in check so as not to get in me the drummers space/spectrum The kick will have to tighten up enough
so as not to muddy...so all these things are a band consideration first and foremost.
So... I'll know what sound will work for me and I'll know how to position it within the sound of the band...and
the upside of all this is that band mix is a quick reference and go, rather than a long drawn-out sound check
to try and fix and repair things..

I never agree that the bass should be sacrificed any more than a gtr would be ... as it just shouldn't be neccesary
but it also assumes you have people who know what the end goal is. If people can't recognise this, then they aren't
the sort of players you play with...

[Lozz196]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1433615993' post='2792581']
I've proved to myself over and again that how a cab sounds at home, played solo, has no bearing on how it will pan out live with drums and guitars. What sounds middly and nasal (for example) at home could well be the sound you're looking for live and fit in perfectly at a gig.
[/quote]

I`ve invariably found that gear that sounds like that is exactly what I need for gigging, Mark. So I now go with what I know works for me in a band context, rather than what I prefer which is the scooped, full bass, crisp highs. Great sound soloed but doesn`t work for what I do.

[Guinness21]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1433617674' post='2792592']
I'd do the opposite to the above.... if the cab doesn't cut it solo... then I'm not interested trying to get any sort of mileage out it
by burying it in a mix.
[/quote]

I'm with you mate.

[spacey]

They should have an old Peavey 410tx as a reference point, they knew how to make bass cabs....

[Guest bassman7755]

Seems to me that the OP likes a cab that imparts a specific tone/EQ wheres modern cabs tend towards a fairly neutral sound. An alternative approach might be to listen to the amp through headphones (which are very neutral sounding) and try to EQ in the desired tone. Once you have something you like through headphones from your amp then it should be fairly close to what you will get with most modern top grade cabs. A further bonus of doing it this was is that if your ever taking a DI out from the amp then the FOH bass sound will be mororless the same as what your hearing through the rig.

TL;DR getting your tone from the amp (or even better the bass pickup mix) is more flexible and scaleable than relying on the sound of a specific cab.

Edited June 7, 2015 by bassman7755

[chris_b]

To the OP, you don't say what gear you've been using up until now, and what amp you were using to run your tests.

My experience when moving up a level with both amps and cabs was that everything I'd come to expect was different. My comfort blanket was gone and I needed to look at everything again, including my basses and my technique. Your signal chain is only as good as the weakest link (as they say), and previously unnoticed weaknesses can shine out when you upgrade. In my case my confidence took a hammering when some "short cuts" in my technique were exposed as not being as clever as I had thought.

How do you know your bass is the [i]one[/i] any more when it's not being smothered by an average cab. Sometimes you hear your bass for the first time, and it isn't always the instrument you thought it was.

Other causes of a "clicky" sound could be the bass set up and the amount of tweeter dialed in. IMO a great bass sound depends more on low mids in a live setting, rather than a ton of bass. Many cabs don't give an honest reproduction of your sound and it can be a shock to hear what a good cab can do.

Having said that, I've been playing a CN212 for awhile and I'd recommend it to anyone.

[Guinness21]

Firstly Chris B, sorry I should have provided more info. Until now I've used very average cabs combos - had a couple of small fender rumbles at home, then was in a band that owned a beat up Ashdown 4x10 combo. I tried everything through a Markbass LM Tube cos I think it's awesome and will be getting one at some point.

Well surely you'd agree the CN212 is a pretty clean sounding cab right? My stingray didn't sound clicky through that. The Super Twin was transparent AND aggressivley voiced, which was too much, not that I 'was hearing my bass for the first time' (i know what I bought). You never know, this possibly might end up being the last cab I buy, and i want somethng that accurately reproduces my bass' sound, and I think the CN212 does that brilliantly. Actually, I I think the CN212's low mids are quite punchy, but for a bass that is treble and bass heavy I think it compliments it.

Bassman7755, just read the last couple of lines of the paragraph above. Don't know where you got that from, I want as transparent a bass rig as possible, and the Markbass LM Tube and CN212 gives me that. It's great to buy an amp rig that sounds great for rock for example, but what happens when you want to be playing other styles of music? That's why I didn't like the Orange Terror Bass or the GK MB Fusion.

[Lozz196]

Must admit when I tried Barefaced cabs for the first time I thought they were a tad trebly/middy, but then I realised it was the colouration of the other cabs I`d been using that made me think this - Markbass cabs, and as the OP found out, they seem to roll off the highs a bit. Probably why my DI`d sound back then was always much treblier through FOH than what I had on stage. Still loved the sound of them though, but needed a rig that would enable me and FOH to essentially hear the same thing, hence going for the BF Super 12T - great cab, like it so much I`ve got two.

[chris_b]

G21, just trying to explore a few possibilities.

I hope you find a band soon that lets you get the CN212 and enjoy a great sound from a great cab.

[Guinness21]

Yeah I hope I find one soon too Chris hahaha, can't wait to buy one of these. Lozz196 well when I tried the Bewrg CN212 and the Vanderkley 212MNT, which are both transparent cabs, I didn't get the sound that I did that I did when trying the Super Twin. Completely agree with you that most cabs are coloured, including Markbass, but Barefaced are transparent and yet aggressively voiced. Never heard my stingray so clicky before, including when trying out the aforementioned cabs, and hope to never again - not a nice sound, all treble

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Guinness21' timestamp='1433691252' post='2793124']Barefaced are transparent and yet aggressively voiced.[/quote]

You can't have "transparent" and "aggressively voiced" at the same time. If they're transparent (which the 12XN cabs are, though I'd use the word accurate) then all you hear is the sound of your fingers/bass/amp. The Stingray does have an inherently "aggressive" tone, hence what you heard!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1433700315' post='2793215']
You can't have "transparent" and "aggressively voiced" at the same time. If they're transparent (which the 12XN cabs are, though I'd use the word accurate) then all you hear is the sound of your fingers/bass/amp. The Stingray does have an inherently "aggressive" tone, hence what you heard!
[/quote]

That was kind of my thinking behind the suggestion that the OP listen to his amp though headphones - to determine whether its truly a neutral sound that hes after.

[Guinness21]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1433700315' post='2793215']
You can't have "transparent" and "aggressively voiced" at the same time. If they're transparent (which the 12XN cabs are, though I'd use the word accurate) then all you hear is the sound of your fingers/bass/amp. The Stingray does have an inherently "aggressive" tone, hence what you heard!
[/quote]

I realised that as I said it haha. Well I would describe the bergantino and vanderkley cabs as transparent, and at no point did I hear the clicky sound that I heard when I tried the super twin. All I'm saying.

[Conan]

[quote name='Guinness21' timestamp='1433705870' post='2793290']
I realised that as I said it haha. Well I would describe the bergantino and vanderkley cabs as transparent, and at no point did I hear the clicky sound that I heard when I tried the super twin. All I'm saying.
[/quote]
So the Berg and Vanderkley did a good job of masking/hiding the "clicky" sound of your bass. The accuracy of the ST2 didn't. It's perfectly cool to prefer the sound of one cab over another, but the reasons for such preferences are not always obvious.

Clearly, both the Berg and the Vanderkley are colouring your sound to some extent. That said, most Barefaced users found that they had to fairly radically re-think their EQ settings when they moved to BF from other cabs.

Just out of interest, how long did you spend playing through each cab? Did you re-EQ the amp or leave it "flat" for all cabs?

Edited June 8, 2015 by Conan

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1433746831' post='2793472'] That said, most Barefaced users found that they had to fairly radically re-think their EQ settings when they moved to BF from other cabs. [/quote]

I wouldn't say that's the case! Some do, some don't. Depends what they're coming from, what they want and what they're going to.

[Guinness21]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1433746831' post='2793472']
So the Berg and Vanderkley did a good job of masking/hiding the "clicky" sound of your bass. The accuracy of the ST2 didn't. It's perfectly cool to prefer the sound of one cab over another, but the reasons for such preferences are not always obvious.

Clearly, both the Berg and the Vanderkley are colouring your sound to some extent. That said, most Barefaced users found that they had to fairly radically re-think their EQ settings when they moved to BF from other cabs.

Just out of interest, how long did you spend playing through each cab? Did you re-EQ the amp or leave it "flat" for all cabs?
[/quote]

I spent about 10 mins playing through each cab, including the ST2 which I tred a few weeks ago now. I played with the amp head's serttings as well as trying a few settings on my stingray HH. I've had a brief amount of experience in a recording studio, where I was plugged into the board, and been lucky enough to play through an incredible PA system with amazing subwoofers, where I was plugged into the board. In these two circumstances, on top of all the other bass rigs I've played through, I've never heard that clicky's sound that I did with the ST2. And that includes playing direct into mixing boards, with obviously no colouration!

Instead of the Vanderkley and bergantino masking my 'true bass' sound', the Barefaced cab is adding this sound.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Guinness21' timestamp='1433755875' post='2793568']
Instead of the Vanderkley and bergantino masking my 'true bass' sound', the Barefaced cab is adding this sound.
[/quote]

I think you're going to get some disagreement with that view.

I don't doubt you got that sound, but how can a cab add anything which isn't already there?

[Guinness21]

God I'm sorry for starting this thread now, only wanted to let the know the search was over. Tbh I wish I liked the ST2, I love that they're made in the uk.

chris_b, maybe colouration is the wrong word. Just like the CN212 has punchy low mids, to my ears the ST2 has an aggressive top end which resulted in a lot of clank. If I've played into a mixing board in a recording studio and not heard this sound, why would I hear it when playing through this cab if that isn't the case?

[Guinness21]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Just googled 'aggressive cabinet' to check that I wasn't going out fo my mind and found this, an unrelated thread about the Baer ML112. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][b]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=2017387"][/url]chris_b, on 20 March 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:[/b][/size][/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]

Is the cab that agressive or are you just not used to EQing for a cab of that format and that quality.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]If you follow the threads on Talkbass you will see that Roger has voiced the cab to be aggressive, this does help them to be heard in a mix, but it can be too much for some users. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]As seen above [/font][/color]IanA described Baer cabs as aggressively voiced, and nobody jumped down his throat. In fact chris_b, you ask him if the cab is aggressive. The way you've been posting on here, it's as if you'd never heard someone talk about a cab as being aggressively voiced. Maybe Baer claim their cabs are aggressive, I don't know too much about Baer so not sure. Or maybe Alex you don't think your cabs are, but there's no denying what my ears heard, and considering the in-studio experience I have, I know what my bass sounds like and it sure as hell doesn't sound that clicky.

[Conan]

Chill dude! Nobody is attacking you here or being "aggressive" - especially Chris b, who (IME) always gives very useful advice in a friendly way. You may be perceiving our confusion as aggression?

There are always problems when we try to describe sound in words, and I think that is causing a bit of an issue here too. We are just trying to understand where this odd clicky sound came from - as it does sound strange that a cabinet (especially a Barefaced one) would add sounds that weren't there in your original signal...

To my knowledge, few of the BF cabs are actually "voiced" at all - but intended (and designed) to accurately reproduce the signal that your bass and amp are sending to it. Which does kind of imply that the clickiness is there, even if you haven't been able to hear it through any other system!

Edited June 8, 2015 by Conan

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1433687495' post='2793092']
Must admit when I tried Barefaced cabs for the first time I thought they were a tad trebly/middy, but then I realised it was the colouration of the other cabs I`d been using that made me think this - Markbass cabs, and as the OP found out, they seem to roll off the highs a bit. Probably why my DI`d sound back then was always much treblier through FOH than what I had on stage. Still loved the sound of them though, but needed a rig that would enable me and FOH to essentially hear the same thing, hence going for the BF Super 12T - great cab, like it so much I`ve got two.
[/quote]

I tried the Big Twin 2 at the 2013 SE bash. I didn't find it excessively trebley at all. However, in a caveat to that statement, although I was playing my own Alembic it was through Simon's Markbass amp head and Bergantino 4x10 which I didn't change the settings on just to compare it to some similar high end gear. I just played with the filter settings on my bass. That berg cab was the best 4x10 I'd ever played. However, I find Markbass amps a bit "spongy" in the low mids. Frankly, the only reason I wouldn't buy a Barefaced is the appearance which is kind of stupid on many, many levels.

I agree entirely with you about the DI sound matching the amplified sound as this is my ideal as well. I kind of agree with you about Markbass having a rolled off top end. I would go slightly further in that I'd say that there are "holes" in the treble content of those cabs. It's not so noticeable when using a 4 string, but using multi coursed basses (12ver's especially) it becomes very noticeable that there are some very peculiar notches and bumps going on up there. It also has the rather unfortunate effect of making the treble content very difficult to control indeed.

If I still had the files I'd post some screenshots of post fx DI compared to the cabs recorded with a Heil PR40 in different positions and then having the lines overlaid to show the difference. It's very interesting and whilst the boost in the high bass/low mids in the Markbass cabs is well known, I find the treble content problem much, much more irritating. However, when you get a rich, overdriven sound and the DI which is going to the cabs sounds like a chainsaw with very little lows at all I would say that puts a dent in the Markbass thought of an "uncoloured" signal.

Naturally, other people's experiences may differ and this isn't in any way meant as a slagging off towards Markbass. I can get what I want out of them, but I can't get the whole "DI matching the amplified signal" which I might like. Not that I think they've ever claimed that is the case with their products.

[Guinness21]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1433763892' post='2793680']
Chill dude! Nobody is attacking you here or being "aggressive" - especially Chris b, who (IME) always gives very useful advice in a friendly way. You may be perceiving our confusion as aggression?

There are always problems when we try to describe sound in words, and I think that is causing a bit of an issue here too. We are just trying to understand where this odd clicky sound came from - as it does sound strange that a cabinet (especially a Barefaced one) would add sounds that weren't there in your original signal...

To my knowledge, few of the BF cabs are actually "voiced" at all - but intended (and designed) to accurately reproduce the signal that your bass and amp are sending to it. Which does kind of imply that the clickiness is there, even if you haven't been able to hear it through any other system!
[/quote]

Sorry dude, yeah I felt I had to be a bit defensive. Chris_b, looking at that now it looks like a personal attack and I'm sorry. Was just trying to clarify my point.

The thing is I don'ty have an explanation for what I heard. If I've played through supposedly transparent rigs like the Bergantino CN212 and the Vanderkley, AND played plugged into a mixing board while recording and never heard that clicky sound, that only leaves one possible explanation - that the Super Twin 2 added something to my sound. Bu then everybody's telling me that's not possible, so I don't know...

[Conan]

[quote name='Guinness21' timestamp='1433764491' post='2793689'] If I've played through supposedly transparent rigs like the Bergantino CN212 and the Vanderkley, AND played plugged into a mixing board while recording and never heard that clicky sound, that only leaves one possible explanation - that the Super Twin 2 added something to my sound. Bu then everybody's telling me that's not possible, so I don't know...
[/quote]

Sounds like a typical Basschat thread to me!