Going classical

[SteveJ]

After 3 years of plonking away on the DB in a trad jazz setting I've bitten the bullet, booked some lessons and am about to learn the mysteries of the bow. Where once chord sheets sufficed I now have to master the dots and become familiar with the writings of F. Simandl. I'm also planning to pit myself against the examiners and work my way through the grades.

After the first lesson the ear piercing scratchy noices are becoming less intrusive and some of the notes are actually quite musical.

Any advice from those who have been down this road before?

[sarah thomas]

Hello from a fellow would-be classicist. I'm about a year in. I find practising in front of a full length mirror useful - if I'm getting horrible scratchy squeaks, then I can look in the mirror to see what I'm doing. Usually the bow has travelled too close to the end of the fingerboard or I'm holding it at some weird angle. I find a timer useful too - one of those kitchen timer things - I set it to however long I've got, then I can play without worrying about the time. And have everything to hand, so that you can get straight into your practice without having to look for things. I have a small table with metronome, timer, tuner, notebook and pencil ready and waiting. That way, if I've only got ten minutes, at least it's ten minutes practice instead of ten minutes looking for whatever I need.

Carve yourself a corner dedicated to the bass and practice every day! Hopefully we can encourage each other along this road.

[Marc S]

I like to listen to some classical music, now & then
But it's not particularly something I want to play - each to their own though
.... I certainly wish I was better with a bow!
So maybe I'll go down the same route as yourself, in future....

Top tip from Sarah though - play in front of a full length mirror
One problem though, if I commandeered a small table, for a metronome & various bits n pieces
Mrs S would be plonking ornaments, cosmetics and a hairdryer on it!

Good luck with the lessons & grades Steve

[SteveJ]

Thanks. A full length mirror it is then!

[phil625sxc]

I didn't have a mirror so use the front camera on my ipad ! it works as I can see if the bow is straight or not...

I've been learning arco for about a year now and it is getting gradually better but it will be a long road, as I knew it would be. It does require a lot of practice and I work full time and gig so don't have as much as I would like to dedicate to it, but a little every day is the way to go if you can, plus a good teacher of course. Choice of bow and rosin may make things easier as well ?

[lowlandtrees]

Am more or less at the same stage as yourself. Problem that I have is that I have silver slap strings fitted and I still want to do that slap stuff as well. Started bowing in the band and it sounded great so decided to learn proper like. The mirror works great. Found some good stuff on Youchoob. I practice with a tuner for about half the practice. Intend to get lessons next month. Found it very valuable for my pizz playing too.
I have a quarter size bass that needs amplification so I can use earphones and play without getting asbo ed

[sarah thomas]

[quote name='Marc S' timestamp='1433838289' post='2794318']

One problem though, if I commandeered a small table, for a metronome & various bits n pieces
Mrs S would be plonking ornaments, cosmetics and a hairdryer on it!

[/quote]

My small table right now has several CDs, a small football and a set of headphones on it as well as bass stuff!

[philparker]

I had the opposite dilemma as in I wanted to learn jazz, but could only find a classical tutor and knowing it would be good for my development I went down that route for the first two years. Initially I divided my practise between scales, bowing exercises and pieces. I also set a timer on my iPad so as not to worry about the time, but as it can get tiring I limited myself to 20 minutes on each discipline. I used the ABRSM guide to get me going through the grades. Being a 'musician' anyway I had no problem with reading music and understanding music, but my tutor did remind me that I wasn't a natural with the bow (after 40 years on guitar and 35 years of bass!).

For the lower grades of 3 - 5, I learned almost all of the set exam pieces to give me a broader experience as well as scales and arpeggios. I came in at grade 6 and learned 3 pieces out of each section before choosing my exam pieces and had to find a piano player to play with, I booked 3 sessions with him before the exam.

If you are going to take the grades and have a choice of teachers try and find a tutor who can play and accompany you on piano! Experiment with different rosin and even different bows if you can. I now have two good bows, both sound and feel different, but are much better and easier to use than the cheap one I started with! I play both sitting down (I bought a stool) and standing because of a shoulder injury. You may also have to experiment with strings? I also use a mirror (occasionally). I personally find a tuner too distracting, if your bass is in tune you can use other references to check your intonation, but eventually your own ear has to be up to the job. I spent a fortune on sheet music.

I wouldn't necessarily buy a classical DB album, but playing it is still good fun and rewarding and I never intend to let skill fade in! Good luck!

[SteveJ]

Thanks, great advice.

Had a lesson today. My bowing had improved on open strings and single octave scales in half and first position but when we moved on to one of the Simandl exercises the bowing went to pieces. I think it was task loading due to the sight reading and changes in note lengths. Trying to maintain a relaxed wrist and elbow was just too hard at my early stage, my arm tensed up and the screeches returned. Plenty to practice over the next two weeks then.

I did change strings from Velvet Garbots to Evah Pirazzi which are easier to bow.

I had a basic £50 bow and have tried a number in the £250 - £350 range, all French. I've bought the one that felt the best in my hand. It feels better and sounds much better when I'm having a good day but rather annoyingly can sound worse than the cheap bow on a bad day. I wonder if really good bows may be even counterproductive for beginners?

[neilp]

No!!! The better the bow you can afford, the better the sound you will make, and the easier and faster you will learn. Simple as that. Having said that, I've just bought a carbon fibre bow from the contrabass shoppe as a second bow, and I have to say it sounds and feels almost as good as my no. 1 bow, which cost over £2k, so try as many as you can, even in the £100 -£300 range you might find a gem.

[SteveJ]

Thanks for the comments about bows, I've read the contrabass shoppe write-up on the carbon fibre bows and am intrigued. I'm a bit cynical still about the costs, is it a bit like guitars? You know you can get a fine telecaster for £500 or spend £5000 on a vintage tele. The £5k guitar may satisfy your lust for gear but will it help you play any better? So, educate me please, what is it that makes a good bow and how will a better on improve my playing, especially in the early stages. Looking forward to some advice.

Steve

[SubsonicSimpleton]

I'm an arco noob, here is the advice I received from my classical tutor before I bought a bow or went for my first lesson;

The bow is an instrument in itself, and it is a very personal thing - it needs to work with your body mechanics and your playing style, length, weight, balance, hair all contribute to the overall package. The more technically demanding the music, the bigger the importance of having a bow that works for you and feels like an extension of your arm.

As a beginner with no technique, I had no idea what I needed, so I bought several affordable bows on approval, took them to my first lesson and my teacher had me play a bunch of different exercises with each one and then pick the one that felt best - her guidance was very helpful, but she was insistent from the outset that she couldn't make the decision for me, and that I would need to look at upgrading further down the line as I develope better technique and approach more challenging material.

So far my personal arco journey has seemed really slow - building the basics of technique such as just holding the bow properly and keeping it straight is something I'm still working on five months in, so although my teachers expensive (pro-orchestra quality) pernambuco bow pulls a nicer sound from my bass, I can't really leverage the advantages it offers in the same way my teacher can, and when she plays my ply bass with my cheap bow, it sounds way better than when I tried playing her carved (pro orchestra level) bass with her bow, so I'm quite content to accept that there is a long way I can go to upgrade my sound just by playing better.

Mirror and when in doubt, more mirror is her consistent advice with regards to practice, on the basis that correct technical foundation and good form is the most important part of the learning process for me at this stage.

[SteveJ]

Thanks that is very helpful. If money was available, would you upgrade the bass or the bow first?

Edited June 16, 2015 by SteveJ

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Right now I'm not thinking about upgrading anything other than my own playing - I find that my arco playing still sounds inconsistent from day to day, so I want to improve my consistency above all else. My bow came with reasonably decent real horse hair on it, but I'm not going to make any assumptions about needing to upgrade until I've had it re-haired at least once with fresh good quality hair.

My experience is that arco is a much more challenging undertaking than any of the other things I've learned, so adopting a kind and patient attitude towards myself and my practice, embracing the fact that I suck and putting aside the demands of my ego has been one of the biggest challenges.

I like to watch performances like these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgZ_-f7pVk4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yjVwRI5aiU
to inspire and ground myself anytime my zen fails and the frustration starts to build.

[SteveJ]

Thanks for all the advice so far!

[neilp]

The right bow will make a huge difference, and I'd look at that first - assuming you've got good strings suitable for arco and a good setup already. As has been said, it's a very personal thing. You need to try lots, different weights, lengths and stiffnesses. Try not to look at price tags before you play with them! You'll feel and hear the difference when you find a good one. With a good bow it'll be easier to make the bass speak, and the tone will be easier to produce, richer and clearer. I tried bows twice the price of the one I bought, and to me they didn't feel or sound as good. You don't necessarily need pro-quality yet, but you do need a bow that "fits".

I might just have been lucky with the carbon bow, and to be hyper-critical it's a tad shorter than I'd like, but I still think it's great value. Worth a try if you get the chance...

Neil

[SteveJ]

[quote name='neilp' timestamp='1434575093' post='2800970']
The right bow will make a huge difference, and I'd look at that first - assuming you've got good strings suitable for arco and a good setup already. As has been said, it's a very personal thing. You need to try lots, different weights, lengths and stiffnesses. Try not to look at price tags before you play with them! You'll feel and hear the difference when you find a good one. With a good bow it'll be easier to make the bass speak, and the tone will be easier to produce, richer and clearer. I tried bows twice the price of the one I bought, and to me they didn't feel or sound as good. You don't necessarily need pro-quality yet, but you do need a bow that "fits".

I might just have been lucky with the carbon bow, and to be hyper-critical it's a tad shorter than I'd like, but I still think it's great value. Worth a try if you get the chance...

Neil
[/quote]
Thanks Neil, I'm going to try the carbon bow from the contrabass shop. I don't mind putting hours and hours of practice in but if a quality bow makes it easier it will be well worth the money. Might have to sell a guitar in penance though!

Edited June 18, 2015 by SteveJ

[fatback]

Try to get hold of a copy of this:

http://artofthebow.com/

It describes a Rabbath video that's absolutely brilliant, though far too expensive. He shows how to test a bow for balance etc. in one section. As a training DVD for the bow it's inspiring.

Not that it can save me from myself, but it really is good.

[SteveJ]

The new carbon bow has arrived, well made, nicely balanced, time to apply the rosin and give it a go!

[fatback]

I guess I can use this thread to vent about how much I hate bowing and rail about how every time I go back to the bow I want to give up playing the wretched instrument altogether. Puts me in a bad mood for whole day.

Phew, that's better.

Edited July 1, 2015 by fatback

[Paultrader]

I've taken this journey too. After over forty year of electric bass playing, I took up classical double bass two and a half years ago, and it has been a fantastic journey, but hard work! I got Grade 5 in March this year, and did Grade 5 Theory in June - still waiting for the result. I was sixty two weeks ago.

I've learnt a tremendous amount about music which has been really energising, especially from the Theory work. Playing double bass is a challenge, particularly the concentration on developing proper technique, which is a slow process - I still have trouble getting the 'bite' with the bow and avoiding overtones. I'm interested in the discussion on bows here.

So - I say, definitely go for it, and go down the classical route, it makes everything better. I still play electric bass in a rock and roll band, but my style is changing; i spend a lot less time trying to be brilliant, and more time enjoying the musicality of what I'm doing - I know I play fewer notes now - but better ones!

[Hector]

[quote name='philparker' timestamp='1433872092' post='2794753']
I wouldn't necessarily buy a classical DB album
[/quote]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdwE2x_WjTg

[SteveJ]

[quote name='Paultrader' timestamp='1435767998' post='2812290']
I've taken this journey too. After over forty year of electric bass playing, I took up classical double bass two and a half years ago, and it has been a fantastic journey, but hard work! I got Grade 5 in March this year, and did Grade 5 Theory in June - still waiting for the result. I was sixty two weeks ago.

I've learnt a tremendous amount about music which has been really energising, especially from the Theory work. Playing double bass is a challenge, particularly the concentration on developing proper technique, which is a slow process - I still have trouble getting the 'bite' with the bow and avoiding overtones. I'm interested in the discussion on bows here.

So - I say, definitely go for it, and go down the classical route, it makes everything better. I still play electric bass in a rock and roll band, but my style is changing; i spend a lot less time trying to be brilliant, and more time enjoying the musicality of what I'm doing - I know I play fewer notes now - but better ones!
[/quote]

Thanks Paul, that is really motivating and exactly what I'm hoping to do too. Planning on Grad 1 this Autumn then, if successful Grade 3 in Spring 2016. Likelwise I've already noticed my jazz pizz playing has improved and bass guitar too with better rhythm and less temptation to fit too many notes into the bar.

[fatback]

Also motivated me to analyse what exactly it is I loathe about arco, and I finally worked it out, so thanks for that.

Arco necessarily opens up the distance between the two hands, so the left hand / wrist has to change shape. That was the first part, I was losing all fluency in the left. The second part was that I was allowing too much weight onto the left thumb, making everything worse.

The rest is just irritation with never being able to get the right amount of rosin going. I can cope with that. Certainly the attraction of arco is real. I'd give anythign to be able to play Bach cello concerto in G. I think reincarnation will be required.

[SteveJ]

It's now 8 weeks since my first classical lesson and so I thought a progress report might be of interest to those who have been down this route or might be tempted in the future.

Well, it's supposed to take 10,000 hours to become totally proficient in any endeavour... At my current rate of progress I'll be 94 years old by the time I complete 10,000 hours. So, I thought I would keep a log of my practice hours and see what can be achieved in the time available to me, which after work, gigs, sleeping and all the other activities of being a husband and father equates to about 5 hours a week.

So after 40 hours of practice there is definite improvement. Scratchy or farty noices are becoming increasingly rare and I'm no longer obsessed by the tension of the bow hairs or the amount of roisin. The left hand is playing in tune much of the time in 1/2 and first position and the bowing is sounding pleasant with the beginnings of some nice [i]legarto[/i] playing. Some of the grade one pieces are starting to sound like pieces of music if you catch me on a good day and the tempo is kept a bit slower than intended. Keith Hartley's book Double Bass solo 1 is great and I'm loving having a go at Beethoven's Ode to Joy and Dvorak's Largo. It's so much easier to sight read if you are familiar with the tune!

C,G,F and Bb major scales are sounding ok but need further work. My teacher told me about a professor of bass who practiced scales for 3 hours every day. He presumably doesn't have much of a life outside of his music and I think anything more than 30 mins would drive me nuts.

I hope this is of use to other novices. Let me know your own progess.

Steve