Phil Starr Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 All my life I've been told not to sing. Recently however I've accidentally stumbled upon something that has completely thrown me. If I sing through monitors I can sing in tune. If I turn the monitors off it sounds hopelessly out of tune to me, but in tune to everyone else, turn them back on and my voice is still in tune. What the hell is going on? It seems I can't hear my own voice properly. It works the other way too, if I start singing without monitors it sounds in tune to me but the monitors (and the rest of the world) show it is way out. Please, please if anyone has an explanation I'd love to hear it. If I understood it there might be things I could do to find my way round the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I wonder whether you have the same problem I do: I can hear the melody I want to sing in my head, but I have trouble translating that to what my vocal cords do. Without monitors, it's almost as if the melody in my brain is "louder" than the signal from my ears, however with a suitably loud monitor the sound of my voice is much more prominent, so I can focus more on what I'm actually singing...if that makes sense? I, too, spent most of my life being told not to sing. Many people still tell me not too - though thankfully the ones who don't are not musicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 I'm hoping someone here teaches singing or knows enough to suggest some reading I can do. The temporary fix is a personal monitor like the little Behringer or Mackie ones. I've no pretensions of ever singing a whole song but various bands want me to do more backing vocals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 It's hard to find what works. I find I go out of tune if my monitor's too loud because it feels like I have to hold back, and if I hold back I seem to drop a semi-tone! I also can't get on with IEMs for some reason. I just have to be picky and get the monitors at the right volume for me to only just be able to hear myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Here, I'm wearing my Applied Psychologist's hat. I can't sing. I sound like a stuck pig. There are known links between auditory feedback and speaking - did you see "The King's Speech", for example? Also, just think how disruptive outside words (conversations) can be on your ability to process other word-based information such as talking and reading (referred to as The Stroop Effect in Psychology). That said, slightly delayed auditory feedback can sometimes be a good thing and can help to correct some speaking problems such as stuttering. I wonder if that's what's happening here? Monitors provide (slightly delayed?) auditory feedback to singers who then have to work especially hard to overcome the disruptive effect if they want to sing properly. Curiously, it may be that in order to help speakers, stutterers, bad singers to vocalise better, it's better to give slightly distorted auditory feedback than bob-on, crystal-clear, immediate feedback. This may help to explain why singers often say they sound good in the shower!? Also, is this why vocoders are currently popular, perhaps? There are various machines and even apps available to help stutterers. Be interesting to see if they can help poor singers. Any speech therapists or singing teachers out there? More here: <a class="bbc_url" href="https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.boostlabz.auraldelayer&hl=en_GB" rel="nofollow external" title="External link">https://play.google....elayer&hl=en_GB</a> and: <a class="bbc_url" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_fluency_device" rel="nofollow external" title="External link">http://en.wikipedia...._fluency_device</a> Google "Auditory feedback and singing" as a start-point for reading. Edited June 10, 2015 by solo4652 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman_sub Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) FromFrFr [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1433928460' post='2795076'] All my life I've been told not to sing. Recently however I've accidentally stumbled upon something that has completely thrown me. If I sing through monitors I can sing in tune. If I turn the monitors off it sounds hopelessly out of tune to me, but in tune to everyone else, turn them back on and my voice is still in tune. What the hell is going on? It seems I can't hear my own voice properly. It works the other way too, if I start singing without monitors it sounds in tune to me but the monitors (and the rest of the world) show it is way out. Please, please if anyone has an explanation I'd love to hear it. If I understood it there might be things I could do to find my way round the problem. [/quote] It sounds like it could be an issue regarding relative pitching. Good singing is largely a mental process (no doubt, some will disagree...), and if you've heard yourself back through the monitors to be able to pitch correctly initially, you should be able to retain the memory of the relative pitch.... If, on the other hand, you could not "align" yourself to start with (i.e. you were not sure where the note you were singing "should" be pitched), then it sounds plausible that you will be off-key when you can finally hear yourself, having not previously established a link between your vocal pitching and the other instruments. I guess just to add to that, securely knowing where the pitches without simple reference is hard and may take years of practice!! Edited June 11, 2015 by roman_sub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 [quote name='roman_sub' timestamp='1434033225' post='2796140'] FromFrFr It sounds like it could be an issue regarding relative pitching. Good singing is largely a mental process (no doubt, some will disagree...), and if you've heard yourself back through the monitors to be able to pitch correctly initially, you should be able to retain the memory of the relative pitch.... If, on the other hand, you could not "align" yourself to start with (i.e. you were not sure where the note you were singing "should" be pitched), then it sounds plausible that you will be off-key when you can finally hear yourself, having not previously established a link between your vocal pitching and the other instruments. I guess just to add to that, securely knowing where the pitches without simple reference is hard and may take years of practice!! [/quote] Hmm, of course that could be going on as well. I've only recently realised that as in all things practice is important. I'd assumed because so many people can hold a tune with little or no effort and I can't that no amount of practice could help. I now know that is wrong, but even so my inability to sing without monitors makes practicing pretty difficult, singing in the car for example just reinforces bad habits. Something else is going on though which is about my hearing, whether by ear or by brain and I'd love to know if anyone expert in this can point me in the right direction. You're right though in pitch security being important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexbasscat Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 [quote name='roman_sub' timestamp='1434033225' post='2796140'] FromFrFr It sounds like it could be an issue regarding relative pitching. Good singing is largely a mental process (no doubt, some will disagree...), and if you've heard yourself back through the monitors to be able to pitch correctly initially, you should be able to retain the memory of the relative pitch.... If, on the other hand, you could not "align" yourself to start with (i.e. you were not sure where the note you were singing "should" be pitched), then it sounds plausible that you will be off-key when you can finally hear yourself, having not previously established a link between your vocal pitching and the other instruments. I guess just to add to that, securely knowing where the pitches without simple reference is hard and may take years of practice!! [/quote] This sounds like a possibility. Don't forget that while you're singing, you're listening to the other band members, playing yourself etc. So there's some multi - tasking going on, while you're attempting to do what so many have told you not to. Some singing lessons may help ? Best wishes for solving this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman_sub Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think anyone can learn to sing well, and singing lessons are indeed a great place to start - not least because you'll develop your ears and start hearing music/intervals/arrangements in a fresh way. Some people are born with natural voices, others are not... Practice and a GOOD teacher would be a good recipe for most. Lots and lots of quacks out there though, so pick which advice you follow sensibly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Quacking I can do, lol. that's the problem . Thanks for your help everyone, any further advice welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyctes Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 What happens when you sing with a finger in your ear, folkie-style? (Apart from problems with your bass playing... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG3 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 [quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1433929285' post='2795086'] I wonder whether you have the same problem I do: I can hear the melody I want to sing in my head, but I have trouble translating that to what my vocal cords do. [/quote] Exactly the same as me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 [quote name='alyctes' timestamp='1434290668' post='2798321'] What happens when you sing with a finger in your ear, folkie-style? (Apart from problems with your bass playing... ) [/quote] I find it makes it much more difficult to hit the note. That's a good question, it has occured to me that it might be something to do with the way bone transmission differs from transmission of my voice through the air. As I say for years I thought I just couldn't sing, then the monitors say I can so long as I get a clear feed from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyctes Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1436719807' post='2820186'] I find it makes it much more difficult to hit the note. That's a good question, it has occured to me that it might be something to do with the way bone transmission differs from transmission of my voice through the air. As I say for years I thought I just couldn't sing, then the monitors say I can so long as I get a clear feed from them. [/quote] Interesting. A friend of my sister's sings professionally, and teaches; she says that anyone who is not genuinely tone-deaf can be taught to sing, and that 99% of it is being able to hear yourself. (She lives somewhere near Bristol, I think.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.