Bi-amping - clean/dirty rig

[Finbar]

Right, bit of background - just got a new job, and I'm already thinking of ways to spend the pay! Few months saving and I will be able to afford all this

Basically, I'm currently running a pre/power setup into a Schroeder 1212L. Its supposed to be a compact rig, and in that regard it succeeds in its purpose! But I've always wanted to muck about with bi-amping for the clean/dirty thing, and it occurred to me today that my power amp can take two different signals and send each channel to a different cab using stereo operation. So I thought buying a second 1212L would be very possible, and I could then use two different preamps to get the bi-amp thing I'm looking at. Something for epic cleans (my current pre can probably do that), and something for a nice drive (I have a couple of ideas at this stage, but nothing solid). That would still give me a comparatively compact bi-amped rig (especially with the imminent arrival of a band van), with great control over the mix of the two using the channel volumes on the front of the poweramp.

So far, so good I think. Anyone got any thoughts on that? Reasons why it wouldn't work? I like it very much as a concept!

If that was all there was to worry about, I'd be sorted. However, I run a lot of effects into the front end of my amp. I'm just wondering what the best way to do this is with regards to the bi-amping. I don't want one channel to be completely clean and not be affected by my pedalboard, so the best place to split the signal is probably after the pedals, right? Anyone have any experience of this kind of stuff? Will it sound horrible running them all into the clean AND dirty channels?

Also, what's the best device for splitting the signal?

Ta ducks

[tayste_2000]

I've done it, of course would you expect anything less

I used a custom A/B/Y box to split my signal, you should get a Lehle if you are serious. My rig was A/B input to select basses in to tb loop in said custom pedal with Boost and tuner in it so I can mute and boost both amps with a single click this is very important so you don't just mute or boost one amp. End of tb loop to A/B/Y output A into Iamp800 with NM410, B into my effects into Iamp600 and 2 CXL112's

It worked well but I found my 100% effect sound a bit weak but the clean was awesome and the combined was also fantastic.

I had all the amps racked up together with a patchbay to link it all up and I ran a custom Obbm pedalsnake to hook it all up, it really is something you have to put together quickly and you have the problem of sending 2 di signals to the desk and them not mucking up your mix.

Hope this helps

[bnt]

If you have a bass suitable for re-wiring, you could even go stereo, sending each pickup to its own channel. There is precedent for this kind of setup: Chris Squire used to go "Rick-O-Sound" through bass and guitar amps at the same time.

I tried a "virtual" version of this, a few years ago, with my Hohner B2v (w/ EMGs), in to Korg Ampworks bass and guitar FX. If I want to gig that configuration, however, I'll need to make it more robust.

[Finbar]

Thanks for that! Makes me think it could be an idea with legs, for sure. I'll have a look into the Lehle stuff

Don't think I'd have anything as complex as that to boost/mute the rig though, just a simple ABY should do me. I use a killswitch on my board if I need to silence everything, and I have a boost pedal on my board which would boost the whole signal, before it is split to each amp.

I don't think it'd take me long to set up at a gig, if I plan it properly. Using a two channel poweramp removes the problem of having two heads, and I can keep the two pres connected to it all the time. If I can mount something like a power distributor in the rack too, and the ABY in the back somewhere, I should be able to keep it all tidy, and only need to plug in two speakon leads and an IEC lead.

I do see that sending 2 signals to the desk may be a little troublesome, but I'd ideally want a DI signal for the clean, and a mic'd signal for the distorted. We only have one guitarist, so that'd only be as much trouble as a band with two guitars? I guess just get friendly with the soundguy, and try and assist him, rather than come across like a dick!

EDIT: bnt, my bass just has one pickup, so I don't think that would be easy! o_O

Edited August 27, 2008 by Finbar

[bnt]

[quote name='Finbar' post='270718' date='Aug 27 2008, 02:07 AM']EDIT: bnt, my bass just has one pickup, so I don't think that would be easy! o_O[/quote]
Ah. OK. Something for the future, perhaps? You say you have money to spend...

[Finbar]

Not THAT much This rig will cost enough as it is - I'd need to buy at least one new pre, a new 1212L, and possibly replace my poweramp ;p That's after finishing my pedalboard o_O

I do have very vague plans for a second Shuker 7 though. One day. Stereo outputs sounds just crazy enough that it might be an awesome idea!

EDIT: I'm assuming this Lehle product is what I'd be looking at?

[url="http://www.lehle.com/products/frameset_l1.php?country=gb&lang=en&L1_Link=P-Split"]http://www.lehle.com/products/frameset_l1....L1_Link=P-Split[/url]

Edited August 27, 2008 by Finbar

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='Finbar' post='270720' date='Aug 27 2008, 02:25 AM']Not THAT much This rig will cost enough as it is - I'd need to buy at least one new pre, a new 1212L, and possibly replace my poweramp ;p That's after finishing my pedalboard o_O

I do have very vague plans for a second Shuker 7 though. One day. Stereo outputs sounds just crazy enough that it might be an awesome idea!

EDIT: I'm assuming this Lehle product is what I'd be looking at?

[url="http://www.lehle.com/products/frameset_l1.php?country=gb&lang=en&L1_Link=P-Split"]http://www.lehle.com/products/frameset_l1....L1_Link=P-Split[/url][/quote]

Only if you want both amps on all the time which defeats the point to be honest, you want their A/B/Y box [url="http://www.lehle.com/products/frameset_l1.php?country=gb&lang=en&L1_Link=LittleDual"]http://www.lehle.com/products/frameset_l1....Link=LittleDual[/url] I think I'll be upgrading my AB box if I don't end up racking my live pedals

[coasterbass]

I'm there with the whole (mini)twin-rig deal. I think we should start our own forum

Contrary to Tayste I run them both in parallel (sametime) so just split the signal. This allows me to have my clean sound underpinning any fx that I through in to the dirty side, and when I cut the fx it just adds some growl.

I'm the first to admit that this is overkill for most gigs, and don't expect anything but total disdain from your 6-string cousins and tubthumpers.

I run the Eden Pre as my clean side and use my SVP as dirty, with a BassPod Live, Big Muff and Octaver in the loop. FWIW I can't recommend either of these preamps enough.

It takes a lot of work to get stuff balanced properly, especially if you start EQ'ing the dirty side to get the most from the FX chain. I found a few hours hooked into the PA at my local rehearsal space sorted things ok.

The trick is in the splitter as you run into resistance problems with basic splitters, especially if you are using active basses. Look out for ground loop issues too, as you will be connecting two mainspowered amps together, with you in the middle. Some people recommended getting a splitter with dual earthlift, but I understand this can cause problems with the high Q from the bass. Basically... suck it and see. Using a wireless set may ease some problems by pulling the bass (and you) out of the earth circuit.

[Bigwan]

I know it's not the same but if you want to keep your rig compact couldn't you just use a barge concepts pedal or something similar and run the blend at 50%? Half clean, half dirty?

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='Bigwan' post='270753' date='Aug 27 2008, 08:51 AM']I know it's not the same but if you want to keep your rig compact couldn't you just use a barge concepts pedal or something similar and run the blend at 50%? Half clean, half dirty?[/quote]

In theory in sounds the same but in practice it's massively different, I have 2 blenders on my board and in the studio I still di pre and post effects.

[cheddatom]

I don't get it to be honest. You want your pedal board going into 2 different pres, one of them distorting the whole time?

I know people will use a dirty amp and a clean amp at the same time to get a great sound, but if you have a good dirty tone on your pedal board.....

I use a bass combo and a guitar amp at the same time, all after my pedal board. My pedal board has a clean blend, and the amps are crossed over. Adding an extra bass amp to this might be fun for volume, or adding a bass amp for a clean signal would be good, but then I wouldn't use the blend on my pedal board, but adding a distorted amp to the set-up? That would ruin my tone and leave me embarassed at quiet sections!

I'm sure you're making sense as you've have some replies, but could you explain in lamens terms what the point is?

[coasterbass]

Just re-read the OP following cheddatom's repsonse....

Two amps, split AFTER the pedal board??? Yes, that does sound curious.

IMO the two main reasons to split the rig are:
a) to have switchable clean and tube-overdrive sounds
to maintain some clean bass (with the solid bottom end) when your fx kick in and remove the frequencies that count.

Putting the fx through both sides would achieve neither, but its personal choice.

But, like I say, suck it and see.

[coasterbass]

its that bl**dy b ) turning in to a thing again isn't it !! Grrrrrrrrr

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='270780' date='Aug 27 2008, 09:20 AM']its that bl**dy b ) turning in to a thing again isn't it !! Grrrrrrrrr [/quote]


yeah, but it makes whatever point you're making look coool

[warwickhunt]

I used to run a pair of combos with my bass going into #1 then the line out to #2 with my effects in the effects loop of one of the combos. I could then have both clean or one effected and the other clean so that the signal retained some punch.

I tried splitting the signal from a preamp that I had and then sending it to the two combos (via effects) but I got better results as above.

The only down side was that I 'had' to take both combos (H&K Bassbase, which were quite weighty) to get what I wanted. If you had a stereo cab (1 cab with each speaker(s) with its own separate inputs) you could do it on a smaller scale!

[coasterbass]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='270881' date='Aug 27 2008, 11:46 AM']The only down side was that I 'had' to take both combos (H&K Bassbase, which were quite weighty) to get what I wanted. If you had a stereo cab (1 cab with each speaker(s) with its own separate inputs) you could do it on a smaller scale![/quote]

Don't distract the man !!!! [b]Twin[/b] Ampeg 8x10's are essential for ALL pub gigs !! Everyone knows that.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='270896' date='Aug 27 2008, 12:08 PM']Don't distract the man !!!! [b]Twin[/b] Ampeg 8x10's are essential for ALL pub gigs !! Everyone knows that. [/quote]

Ah well he could subdivide each 8x10 into a left & right vertical stereo column

I should hasten to add that I tried the mini-rig bi-amped via the preamp as described (pre signal to 2 combos) but as Alex, BFM et al will be able to tell you if you are sending a bi-amped signal to a couple of cabs that aren't designed for the bi-amp job (which a pair of Schroeder 1212s aren't) then you will not be getting the true benefit of bi-amping. Hence my decision to stick to full range signals going to combos that were intended to handle full range signals... and IMHO sounded better for being full-range

BTW I did all of this about 12 years ago, way before t'Internet and before anyone could assist me in understanding why bi-amping into full range cabs just didn't sound right [b]for me[/b]!

[MythSte]

I suppose its not technically Bi-amping though. Just Wet-Dry mix. So it shouldnt matter about full range cabs. Either way, i bet it'll sound ace as tits.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='ste_m3' post='270918' date='Aug 27 2008, 12:41 PM']I suppose its not technically Bi-amping though. Just Wet-Dry mix. So it shouldnt matter about full range cabs. Either way, i bet it'll sound ace as tits.[/quote]

Good point but I kinda assumed the OP was talking about splitting the signal into high and low signals (via a x-over or bi-amp preamp) as he is using the term bi-amp and not stereo or full range!

Come back at us Finbar and clarify if you are talking bi-amp or stereo

<edit> for typo

Edited August 27, 2008 by warwickhunt

[MythSte]

Yeah, i think it was a terminology mixup as he said he would be running a signal into each side of his stereo power amp and would need another Pre.

[Merton]

[quote name='ste_m3' post='270918' date='Aug 27 2008, 12:41 PM']Either way, i bet it'll sound ace as tits.[/quote]
What do tits sound like?

At the moment, mostly "Ow! Get off!"

[MythSte]

[quote name='Merton' post='270991' date='Aug 27 2008, 01:44 PM']What do tits sound like?

At the moment, mostly "Ow! Get off!"

[/quote]

Depends whats on them when they're played.

[Merton]

[quote name='ste_m3' post='270992' date='Aug 27 2008, 01:46 PM']Depends whats on them when they're played.[/quote]



Back on topic. I've often thought of doing something similar (clean and dirty rigs) but have never actually had the chance to do it satisfactorily in a live situation.

[MythSte]

Yeah, I'd be afraid of being told do do one by soundguys!

[Finbar]

Crikey, guess I'd better respond.

No, I don't mean bi-amp in the most literal sense. More just a stereo setup to simulate a 'true' bi-amp rig. I just got the idea from the Timmy C/Chris Wolstenholme rigs. Also, I borrowed an Aguilar Agro recently, and it sounded fabby as a preamp, it just needed some more oomph underneath it with a bit more clarity. Train of thought brought me here. May turn out to be a dumb idea

And some of the confusion that has sprung up for the rest of you has also entered my mind too! That's why I'm fielding this topic to everyone I'll try and expand a bit.

I was planning on leaving the whole thing on all the time. Epic tone is epic, after all. However, if its a heavily driven Pre, it probably has a footswitch with it to turn the overdrive off. I can utilise that if I ever need it 100% clean I should think. Because yeah, sometimes the distortion won't be favourable. But I don't want to be fannying around with turning cabs on/off all the time if I can avoid it. Incidentally, its the Ampeg SVP I have at the moment coasterbass, and it doesn't drive enough to be my dirty channel.

The reasoning for splitting after the effects was that I thought it might sound a bit odd when using some effects pedals to have the unprocessed sound coming through as well. For things like distortions and delays, it'd be fine, but for things like pitchshifting, there would always be the root note underneath. That wouldn't sound bad necessarily, but not the sound I'm looking for. I'm also thinking that the dirty channel would be the quieter one, so if I ran effects just through that, my effects might get lost a little bit. This has been the biggest headache for me. Like I said, if there were no effects, it would just be plug in, split signal, big tone. Easy ;p I want an aggressive tone.

So yeah, I'm still just finding my feet with this idea, keep responses coming and I'll give it all a good think!