Is it really in the fingers and not the bass?

[rjs1909]

I remember reading an interview with Nuno Bettencourt and Brian May once. Nuno said that he had the chance to play through EVH's stage set up and was lamenting that he still sounded like Nuno and not EVH.

There have been a number of times that people have borrowed my bass at Uni and played it through the same amp with the same settings but we all sounded completely different, so I think that the player has more influence on the sound than gear does. That is not to say that gear makes no difference, it is just not as important as the player.

[Chrismanbass]

my job involves engineering jazz gigs in a very dead room including quite a lot of jams i regularly have 7 or 8 different players on an acoustic piano and an acoustic double bass (i know we're talking about electric bass here but the point stands ) and each player to me makes the instrument sound completelydifferent

to the point where some have more warmth in the sound and some bring out the harsher overtones of the piano just in the way they hit the keys without me touching any of the settings (EQ Compression etc... ) this say's to me that even though the electric bass isn't an acoustic instrument the way you play the instrument has a large influence on the tone

bear in mind that theres no compromise in the way the piano or bass is mic'ed up we have access to a fantastic mic collection through a very nice PA system in an incredibly non reflective room

this experience has completely convinced me that at least some if not a vast majority of a players tone comes from the way they play an instrument and not whatever process is used to amplify their playing

Edited June 21, 2015 by Chrismanbass

[ambient]

It's all the problem of the word 'tone'.

Tone as in sound, as in what makes you sound like you.

It's a mix of gear, obviously, a Jazz bass sounds like a jazz bass, and a P bass sounds like one of them, a fretless sounds like a fretless and Stingray sounds like it does.

Then comes the hard to define part of what really makes you sound like you, the articulation in your playing. That's how you play, the force that you strike the string with, the angle that you engage it with, the part of the finger that makes contact with the string, whereabouts on the bass you pluck etc.

All of these little things add up into a whole lot. Which is why you sound like you, albeit playing a Stingray, a jazz, a P or whatever.

How many guys back in the 80s went running out and bought a JD bass, a Trace Elliot amp and whatever strings. Hoping in vain to sound like Mark King ?
Of course most didn't, they sounded nothing like him, because there's a whole lot more to 'your sound', or 'his sound', than just the gear, and without really examining a players real style, and also examining your own, you're not going to get there.

Edited June 21, 2015 by ambient

[TimR]

I think you're all trying to overthink this.

If you pluck an acoustic double bass it will sound completely different to an electric bass. That's timbre. One electric bass will always have a different timbre to another. Change amps, FX, speakers, they'll all change the timbre.

The fingers won't affect the timbre.

But all the fiddling with settings and changing amps and cabs in the world won't alter what you are playing with your fingers. They're your 'fingerprint'.

I suppose it would be like taking fingerprints using different colour inks. The fingerprint remains unchanged and recognisable but there is still an obvious difference.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1434868633' post='2803354']
That's timbre.
[...]
The fingers won't affect the timbre.
[/quote]

I'm not sure, but I think you're talking about formant - the instrument's physical DNA as it were.
Timbre is the sounding result, and very much so affected by the fingers.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1434868633' post='2803354']
The fingers won't affect the timbre.
[/quote]

Not really true, the distance from the bridge you play, whether you pull-and-release or strike the string percussively, whether you use a pick, the angle you strike the note at (parallel to fretboard vs perpendicular), and how hard you play the note all influence it. Fretting hand wise, whether you pluck/pick every note or use hammer ons and/or gliss into a note, whether you use vibrato or not also have an effect. All these things affect the harmonic content and the attack and decay of the note. As I said above, better gear tends to respond and emphasise the subtle differences of how different people play.

Edited June 21, 2015 by bassman7755

[chris_b]

The bottom line is; you as a player will make the most difference to the sound you get from an instrument. Another player will easily sound different on the same bass. That is your technique making the difference to your sound. Your style of playing underpins the contribution any EQ or gear makes.

You can see this in action at every Bass Bash.

The shorthand for this is, "The tone is in your fingers".

My experience is when I rocked up to the first gig with my Lull. I asked the guitarist what he thought of my new bass. He said, "It sounded good, but it sounded like you". Believe it or not, you will sound like [i]you[/i] on an SX bass or Alembic, P bass or Jazz. Of course those instruments will sound different but you will sound the same on them.

The gear will sound good or bad, depending on what it is and what you do with it, but take lessons and practice. . . . a lot. That's the only way of significantly improving the sound you make on your instrument.

[4-string-thing]

It's got to be a combination of everything you use to produce the music you're playing hasn't it?

Having said that though, I've recently changed almost everything in my set up, gone from a 70's Fender P to a Harley Benton 50's P. A big 80's Acoustic rig with 15" cabs to a small new Markbass rig with 12" speakers and you know what, it still sounds like me.... All the right notes, sometimes, in the wrong order...

[TimR]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1434879282' post='2803452']


I'm not sure, but I think you're talking about formant - the instrument's physical DNA as it were.
Timbre is the sounding result, and very much so affected by the fingers.
[/quote]

A quick Google tells me that formant relates to human speech.

I think an instrument's timbre is what differentiates a piano from a trumpet etc.

Ultimately it depends on how bad the player is and how bad the instrument is on how much each affects the resulting noise. It's very subjective.

The hardest but cheapest (financially) thing to get right is the fingers. Anyone can spend a fortune on gear but as the saying goes 'You can't polish a turd' - or sh*t in sh*t out.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1434787433' post='2802768']
It's a bit Through The Looking Glass really, the question is, how widely do you define tone and perhaps, how important is tone.

[b]If tone is everything outside playing the right notes at the right time then technique probably is more important than the bass you play.[/b] Even if you define tone more narrowly as the sound coming out of the speakers then the speakers and the amp have roughly the same effect on sound as the bass you use, give or take.

If I hand my gear over to a more experienced bassist they get sounds out of it I can only dream of. Even listening to two equally talented bassists playing the same gear will give you differences in tone. Equally playing at home My J Bass has a much nicer tone than my more expensive P-Bass. On stage with my current band I think the P works better but I don't suppose the audience notices or cares. Listening to live recordings of my band I couldn't swear to you which bass I was using in most of the songs. I no longer bother swapping basses at gigs for such marginal gains as the dynamic of the gig is more important.

Of course we care about tone, if you want to play music you should take it seriously, but hours spent on the bass will improve your sound more than hours spent shopping surely?

So to answer the OP it's all a factor but if you've got decent gear then most of how you sound it is down to you. If you have the money you can buy marginal improvements but narrowly defined tone is only part of how your sound.
[/quote]

So many bass players get no other sound out of the bass other than their default sound and they have no variation in that.
Vary the attack and that will vary and enhance your tone, IMO,

[Funky Dunky]

We have solved nothing here! This is the debate which will divide musicians until the end of time!

[juliusmonk]

If one wants an excuse to kill GAS, you can say it is in the fingers and be done with it

I think when people allude to fingers they mean that one eventually realises how much of the tone is in the player. But of course that depends on a bass that reacts to your playing, a neck that allows you to move instinctively, etc. Without the proper tools, fingers can do nothing. Conversely, the best bass in the world is useless if you don't know how to approach it. Ideally, the bass and rig is such that what you feel is translated into sound to perfection. With time, you can detect where the bottleneck is in the continuum heart (or soul)-brain-fingers-bass-amp-sound

I think...

[BassTractor]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1434886348' post='2803548']
A quick Google tells me that formant relates to human speech.
[/quote]

Not exclusively, and at any rate it doesn't detract from my point that an instrument has a physical DNA: the part that does not change on a per note basis, whilst timbre simply is about the resulting sound you get when combining the instrument's "formant" (or what one calls it) with one's playing and with all the settings etc.

Though not strictly true scientifically, I think one can well say that the formant is those capacities of the instrument that make that one can recognise a Precision or a StingRay even when played with different techniques and different equipment settings.


[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1434886348' post='2803548']
I think an instrument's timbre is what differentiates a piano from a trumpet etc.
[/quote]

Yes, but since "timbre" is about the resulting sound, many tones emitted from that trumpet will have wildly different timbres as well.
In some cases different instrument tones are so similar in timbre that one is hard pressed to decide which instrument is responsible, like the famed voice-like qualities of the cello.


E.g. a slightly smaller violin with thinner walls probably has a different formant than a slightly larger one with thicker walls, and most of the time one might be able to hear which of them is being played.
The moment however they emit tones with identical timbre, the human ears stops being able to differentiate those two violins.

[discreet]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1434886348' post='2803548']
You can't polish a turd.
[/quote]

No - but you can roll it in glitter.

Our drummer refuses to indulge in GAS or even use his own drums most of the time, the lazy bastard. When asked if he would not prefer to use his own kit - the one he presumably selected over years of drumming for its sound - he said, 'Drums is drums'.

[steve-bbb]

apparently some people can tell the difference in tone with a heavy mass bridge/saddles

[TimR]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1434895306' post='2803634']


No - but you can roll it in glitter.

Our drummer refuses to indulge in GAS or even use his own drums most of the time, the lazy bastard. When asked if he would not prefer to use his own kit - the one he presumably selected over years of drumming for its sound - he said, 'Drums is drums'.
[/quote]

If you're a pianist then you get to a similar point.

I spent 7 years off and on looking for a new bass that I liked. In the mean time I stuck with the same bass I had been playing for the preceding 15 years.

My dad (now in his 70s) spent his late teenage band years playing whatever piano was in whatever pub.

Changing gear is a bit of a luxury for most of us.

You get to a point where what you play, how you play it and who you play it with is more important than what you play it on.

[Funky Dunky]

Eric Johnson claims to be able to hear the difference between a gold jack or not on a lead. I also read he claims to know by listening whether a pedal is powered by a Duracell battery or not, but I'll assume that was a joke.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='juliusmonk' timestamp='1434894795' post='2803629']
...brain-fingers-bass-amp-[b]sound man who has only ever listened to Metallica[/b]-sound..
[/quote]

You missed a step... I've added it in for you.

[ambient]

Kind of odd the way the greatest players generally use simple set ups, passive fenders etc, and still manage to sound, well amazing, yet always different to the next guy.

😁

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1434825742' post='2803150']
Maybe we are all thinking differently here. Put it this way, if Keef plays Midnight Rambler with a Strat, then I play Midnight Rambler with a Strat, the two would sound very different. Thats whats in the fingers.

If Keef plays Midnight Rambler with a Strat, then plays it with a Les Paul and a cheap woolies amp, the two would sound different, but thats the gear.

Nobody, but nobody would ever play it like Keef, which is why I used it as an example.
[/quote]

Don't know who Keef is but this is the perfect explanation for me

...anyway, I played bass in part of a backing band for a singer/songwriter. It was quiet, gentle, acoustic music, and I played the whole set almost entirely with my thumb up by the neck. This weekend I played a mental rock gig where I plucked, slapped, picked, and bashed my bass, through a pedal board of 15 pedals, and a bi-amp rig. I don't think any blind-folded experts would have been able to tell it was the same bassist.

[ubit]

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1434728604' post='2802294']
It's both. Next...
[/quote]

Exactly! Think of buying all the gear Steve Harris uses. Same bass, strings, amp etc. you will try but you ain't gonna sound like him, well, ok, maybe a bit like him, but technique makes a big difference to sound.

I'm just happy to get a decent sound that suits me!

[chris_b]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1434977130' post='2804300']
you will try but you ain't gonna sound like him, well, ok, maybe a bit like him
[/quote]

No, you were right first time.

[discreet]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1434975975' post='2804282']
Kind of odd the way the greatest players generally use simple set ups, passive fenders etc, and still manage to sound, well amazing...
[/quote]

Heh. I think the difference between great players and not-so-great players may well be in direct proportion to the difference in time spent concentrating on gear and the time spent concentrating on playing...

Obviously active basses etc have their place and I've tried one or two, same with FX and the plethora of preamps and so on, but the best results I ever got was with a P bass and an Ampeg rig. Nothing got in the way of concentrating on what I was doing. There's a lot to be said for keeping it simple, especially live. YMMV, IMHO, IME, ASOASF (And So On And So Forth).

[discreet]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1434976161' post='2804285']
...I played the whole set almost entirely with my thumb up by the neck.
[/quote]

Wouldn't it have been better to have both hands free to play the bass..?

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1434980166' post='2804349']
There's a lot to be said for keeping it simple, especially live. [/quote]

Yes - this. MVDV (My View Doesn't Vary)