Hopeless live sound - all the gear, no idea.

[The Admiral]

Spent a very frustrating hour in a pub tonight listening to a Blues duo : slide/harmonica/Vox and guitar/BVs.

Nice guitars, good players, and a good set - but completely ruined for me by the frankly sh*te sound they were getting from their Mackie rig of 12 ch powered mixer into 2 1x15 plus horn tops on stands.

They had no monitors, which didn't help, but they had set the speakers up behind them, and had them pointing off axis, at the walls, to avoid feedback, and everything sounded like wooly mush : dull rumbling strumming, with far too much reverb, from the semi playing guitarist - and wooly, indistinct vocals and harp. I was desperate to get up and take charge of the mixer for 2 minutes to at least bring some clarity to what they were doing, but that was clearly not an option. They were fiddling all set too- trying to get it better, but with no positive result.

What fascinated me is that the pub punters were well into it, even though it sounded like they were playing under water, which perhaps bears out many people's belief that most punters have got cloth ears, and the stuff we worry about, they don't hear, and/or care about.

I don't understand why guys who have clearly invested huge amounts of time learning their craft, and big bucks on their gear, don't appear to have spent any time learning how it actually works!

Bizarre, or is it me?

[discreet]

[quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1434843694' post='2803305']
What fascinated me is that the pub punters were well into it, even though it sounded like they were playing under water, which perhaps bears out many people's belief that most punters have got cloth ears, and the stuff we worry about, they don't hear, and/or care about.
[/quote]

Sad but true. In fact, a lot of 'musicians' (or at least the ones I know) have got cloth ears too, so what chance for your average punter?

[quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1434843694' post='2803305']
Bizarre, or is it me?
[/quote]

Both.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

Did you manage to chat to them ,and give them some input ?

[Lozz196]

It is strange isn`t it, I`ve seen some bands whose sound has been appalling, yet as they`ve played songs the punters knew, have gone down incredibly well. I sometimes wonder if we try and take it too far, getting all the sounds right etc, given this, but I`d never be happy in a band that had a bad sound (though given the racket my lot make this statement may be viewed as a trifle daft).

[The Admiral]

[quote name='RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE' timestamp='1434853399' post='2803337']
Did you manage to chat to them ,and give them some input ?
[/quote]

No. I'm always wary of coming off like an arse in situations like this, and I'm very conscious of how this looks from their side - some random bloke from a pub audience telling them how to use their gear. It's the kind of thing which turns up in the 'How was your gig last night?' thread on here all the time!

They also had a table full of WAGs and mates with them, plus a few people who were there specifically to see them, who were lapping it up, so it didn't seem as if it would have landed too well. So frustrating though, particulalyr as, if I put my 'producer's' hat in, I could also have given them some input on the arrangements and general performance too! I would definitely have suggested the guitarist swap his semi for a telecaster, or something solid bodied and suitably 'cool' - and whether he could be persuaded to do so or not, certainly go for an overdriven Muddy Waters type sound - which would have worked far better. I don't know if they were going for a kind of Eddie Cochran/Rockabilly guitar sound, but it didn't come off - not aided by DI'ing the guitar : far better to have played with a small back line amp, which would have taken a lot of the mush out of the PA sound too, as it wouldnt have been competing for the mid range.

Edited June 21, 2015 by The Admiral

[police squad]

I saw a band recently, that had a sound engineer, with an iPad. wandering around the venue to get the sound right. It was dreadful. Muddy as hell. people don't know how to use a mixing desk. They boost everything when they should leave it flat and add a little treble for clarity (well that works for me and the bands I watch that have a good sound). Their sound was so bad that we moved on to another pub

[lurksalot]

[quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1434859363' post='2803341']
No. I'm always wary of coming off like an arse in situations like this, and I'm very conscious of how this looks from their side - some random bloke from a pub audience telling them how to use their gear. It's the kind of thing which turns up in the 'How was your gig last night?' thread on here all the time!

They also had a table full of WAGs and mates with them, plus a few people who were there specifically to see them, who were lapping it up, so it didn't seem as if it would have landed too well. So frustrating though, particulalyr as, if I put my 'producer's' hat in, I could also have given them some input on the arrangements and general performance too! I would definitely have suggested the guitarist swap his semi for a telecaster, or something solid bodied and suitably 'cool' - and whether he could be persuaded to do so or not, certainly go for an overdriven Muddy Waters type sound - which would have worked far better. I don't know if they were going for a kind of Eddie Cochran/Rockabilly guitar sound, but it didn't come off - not aided by DI'ing the guitar : far better to have played with a small back line amp, which would have taken a lot of the mush out of the PA sound too, as it wouldnt have been competing for the mid range.
[/quote]

I think it is one thing to offer some help with the overall sound that you can hear at the back of the room , but telling them they are using the wrong type of guitar and have the wrong image would be a touch indelicate

[TimR]

I've sometimes spoken to bands, saying that they look like they're having trouble getting the PA right and asked if they would like some help.

If you're polite about it you shouldn't come across as an arse, more likely they'll be relived. Worse case scenario you get a stare and a "no thanks mate we know what we're doing."

.

Edited June 21, 2015 by TimR

[JTUK]

I really don't get bands who can't get a good sound and especially bands that don't promote the vocals.
All these things count so if I wasn't enjoying the band and the general pub vibe, I'd move on.

[Panamonte]

I was in a pub in a remote village on the north west coast of Scotland a few years ago. There was a band playing who'd come up from Glasgow (acoustic guitar, fiddle, bodhran and vox through a small PA) and when they took a break, the fiddle player did a short set of Brassens, Thackray etc. chansons, accompanying himself on guitar. The sound was so bad - guitar too loud and boomy, vocals almost inaudible - that after the first song, since his band mates weren't going to do anything about it, I was compelled to rush over to the stage area, tell him the sound was awful and then make suitable adjustments to the mixer/amp. Fortunately my guerilla sound engineering was gratefully received on this occasion, but I do appreciate that in other circumstances it might not have gone down so well!

[xgsjx]

Maybe they were going for a muffled underwater sound to prevent them from sounding like every other acoustic duo?

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1434843694' post='2803305']

I don't understand why guys who have clearly invested huge amounts of time learning their craft, and big bucks on their gear, don't appear to have spent any time learning how it actually works!

Bizarre, or is it me?
[/quote]

i think this might apply to quite a few bass players too

[PaulWarning]

it is up to someone to tell them, I've lost count of the number of gigs I've played when I thought the sound was sh*t, and it sounded fine in the crowd, the reverse is also true, what is really frustrating is when they tell you when the gigs finished that something wasn't right

[The Admiral]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1434872085' post='2803374']


I think it is one thing to offer some help with the overall sound that you can hear at the back of the room , but telling them they are using the wrong type of guitar and have the wrong image would be a touch indelicate
[/quote]

I thought their image was good - and I'm not one for worrying about whether someone is wearing the 'wrong' brand of jeans.

John Lee Hooker did fine with an Epiphone semi, and my Tele comment was about the sound, not the look : the 'sutably cool' comment was in the sense of his thinking that, and being prepared to be seen playing it - I know how image conscious most guitar players are. I just get inordinately frustrated that better players than me sell themselves short like this, and effectively fail to show their abilities to their best, by avoidable mistakes. They were a really good band, and it pissed me off that they were not making the most of that.

We left them to it after the first set, but they were going down well. The trouble with that is, it's like being the star player in a 4th division ( I still can say '2nd division') football team - the fans love you, and you are playing every week, knocking in the goals, but with a bit of application and working upon the small detail, you could be playing in the championship.

Edited June 21, 2015 by The Admiral

[The Admiral]

[quote name='police squad' timestamp='1434871463' post='2803368']
I saw a band recently, that had a sound engineer, with an iPad. wandering around the venue to get the sound right. It was dreadful. Muddy as hell. people don't know how to use a mixing desk. They boost everything when they should leave it flat and add a little treble for clarity (well that works for me and the bands I watch that have a good sound). Their sound was so bad that we moved on to another pub
[/quote]

I've lost count of the number of cars I have rented where the tone controls are all set to +9 : people, but especially the under 30s, don't have a clue what 'good' sounds like, which IMHO, is linked somewhat to years of listening to MP3 through cheap headphones and poor sound systems.

[discreet]

[quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1434876521' post='2803420']
...people, but especially the under 30s, don't have a clue what 'good' sounds like, which IMHO, is linked somewhat to years of listening to MP3 through cheap headphones and poor sound systems.
[/quote]

This is so true and it's very, very sad. Recordings have to be pushed to as close to 0db as possible to compete with all the other songs doing the same thing - modern music lacks any kind of dynamics and is very tiring to listen to.

[phil.c60]

It's not just bands in pubs, either. A good few years ago wife and I went to see Debbie (now Deborah?) Harry at Wembley arena. The sound was so absolutely f*****g awful, (sorry about the effing but that's how bad it was) like being in a dustbin with various people banging on it with sticks and melons and brooms and anything in between that made a sort of indefinable booming noise, that after 20 minutes of absolute torture and despite having travelled a long way to be there, we were seriously considering leaving. Suddenly someone somewhere got there sh*t together and like flicking a switch the sound was transformed. Even big names in big venues don't get it right all the time.
I've also given up watching live broadcasts (or recorded, often makes no difference) on the dear old Beeb from Glastonbury etc. as generally the sound is awful. You can rarely pick out the instruments and vocally it's usually poor. Surely they get their feed straight form the desk and should be able to make a better fist of it. They seem to sacrifice the music sound quality for a,lot of crowd noise for that "authentic festival atmosphere". Or some such bullshit.
Rant over, Happy Fathers day.

Edited June 21, 2015 by phil.c60

[spacey]

If they were the Chinese Mackies the horns might have blown.
They dont take much stick.

[ubit]

To be honest, I get cheesed off with so called experts coming up and telling us how to do it. I would never dream of going up to a band and telling them to change settings unless I knew them or they asked me.
I remember hearing a local band sound checking and giving them the thumbs up and saying sounds perfect guys The guitarist says oh, I can't hear the keys. So they turned up the keyboard and after that all we could hear was keyboard drowning out everything else I just thought, right, I'm not helping anymore. I thought an opinion from a known musician sitting in the audience would have counted for something

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1434879296' post='2803453']
To be honest, I get cheesed off with so called experts coming up and telling us how to do it. I would never dream of going up to a band and telling them to change settings unless I knew them or they asked me.
I remember hearing a local band sound checking and giving them the thumbs up and saying sounds perfect guys The guitarist says oh, I can't hear the keys. So they turned up the keyboard and after that all we could hear was keyboard drowning out everything else I just thought, right, I'm not helping anymore. I thought an opinion from a known musician sitting in the audience would have counted for something
[/quote]fine if you've got your own sound guy, but if you haven't you hope your regulars in the crowd say something

[leftybassman392]

It's a tricky subject to be sure. I did a gig once where somebody came up and commented on the sound ('great gig guys; perhaps a touch more on your guitar...'). On that occasion it was appreciated for reasons that I won't bore folks with, but normally I wouldn't welcome it as I used to consider myself pretty good at this kind of thing (not least because I ran a PA hire facility as part of my business for some years). In the function band we took our own sound tech with us - a professional musician himself with a good ear. Not a trained engineer but a lot better than nothing at all and well worth what we paid him.

The only time I would even consider approaching the band would be when:

1. Their sound is truly abominable; and
2. They've finished their set (tinkering mid-set can make matters even worse IME). Sort of a 'something to consider when you get a minute guys...'

If I got a negative reaction, I'd walk away and leave them to it.

[The Admiral]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1434879296' post='2803453']
To be honest, I get cheesed off with so called experts coming up and telling us how to do it. I would never dream of going up to a band and telling them to change settings unless I knew them or they asked me.
I remember hearing a local band sound checking and giving them the thumbs up and saying sounds perfect guys The guitarist says oh, I can't hear the keys. So they turned up the keyboard and after that all we could hear was keyboard drowning out everything else I just thought, right, I'm not helping anymore. I thought an opinion from a known musician sitting in the audience would have counted for something
[/quote]

Exactly why I didn't say anything. They have no idea if you know what you are talking about, or are just some 'pub expert' who thinks its a case of turning up the treble knob, so I statyed well clear. 9 times out of 10 you are going to get the 'thanks mate, but we are alright' brush off, and that's if they are being polite.

[discreet]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1434879296' post='2803453']
I would never dream of going up to a band and telling them to change settings unless I knew them or they asked me.
[/quote]

Very much this. It's all subjective anyway. If you think a band sound terrible, then they sound terrible and that's how it is, regardless of whether they are otherwise any good. For example, I sometimes despair of how people are dressed, how they speak, what they say, how they drive, how they behave in public and so on [i]ad infinitum[/i], but it doesn't mean I'm in any way qualified to judge them or to make my views known to them. It would be control-freakery on my part. It's an imperfect world and I'm learning to live with it. Accept there are things you can do nothing about and move on.

Edited June 21, 2015 by discreet

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1434878613' post='2803446']
If they were the Chinese Mackies the horns might have blown.
They dont take much stick.
[/quote]

I did wonder if blown horns were a part of it. I've played a few pubs with small PA systems with blown horns and got exactly the results the OP describes, and you can't do much about it with EQ. And the landlord always seems to insist that they're fine because they still produce sound.

[mep]

In our band I work the desk so get comments from the other band member and friends etc in the audience for the mix. Most people we know and trust their input. The best advice was from someone we met for the first time who gave great advice on the amp and mixer settings which really transformed our sound. We let him adjust the levels and eq in the second set and had great feedback which we have employed ever since. It can work but will depend on the band in question.