Hopeless live sound - all the gear, no idea.

[largo]

So, with no monitors how would you suggest they should have setup the PA so as to hear themselves & not get feedback? Just curious as to me it sounds like they were making the most of a bad situation. I'm by no means a sound engineer so would actually be curious to know. Thanks.

[ubit]

[quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1434881379' post='2803489']


Exactly why I didn't say anything. They have no idea if you know what you are talking about, or are just some 'pub expert' who thinks its a case of turning up the treble knob, so I statyed well clear. 9 times out of 10 you are going to get the 'thanks mate, but we are alright' brush off, and that's if they are being polite.
[/quote]

Exactly mate, I can't understand why it's us that have "experts" telling us what to do when we know we have a decent sound yet when we see other bands that maybe have a poor sound, no one is telling them to turn this up or turn this down. I just think it's a cheek. As stated, if it's a poor sound, that's up to the band in question to sort it out. They don't know who I am unless it's another local band. We usually take a walk out front when fully underway which gives you a decent chance to hear what's going on.

[Japhet]

As we all know, what we hear on stage can be way off what the audience get. I like to get a bit of input from the punters as long as I trust their judgement. We have a few regulars who tell us if levels need adjusting. If you play pubs it's often the case that levels need changing as the place fills up as well, so what sounded fine in the soundcheck needs altering later on even though the sound on stage hasn't altered. I'm not precious about a bit of well intentioned input at all.

[The Admiral]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1434896550' post='2803657']
So, with no monitors how would you suggest they should have setup the PA so as to hear themselves & not get feedback? Just curious as to me it sounds like they were making the most of a bad situation. I'm by no means a sound engineer so would actually be curious to know. Thanks.
[/quote]

Good article from SOS which covers this. As the article suggests, with no vocals, speakers behind the performers can be a good call, as, without vocal mics, the chances of feedback are hugely reduced. What they could have done with, and, given the money they had spent on their gear (all very good quality, and clearly well looked after) I was surprised they didn't have, was any form of monitoring, and for a duo pub gig, a powered monitor on the floor (and the Mackies will 'kickback' to facilitate this), or, a small powered monitor on the mic stand works well, and doesn't cost a fortune but certainly pays its way in terms of the improvement of the performers experience.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct03/articles/goinglive.htm

[TimR]

If someone tells me the bass is too loud.

I turn it down.

I wouldn't like us not to get called back just because the bass was too loud.

People are too worried about what someone 'might' say. It's really not a problem if I offer help and they don't want it. What would be worse for me would be to go home at the end of the gig wishing I'd said something.

We're all musicians and human beings. What's the problem?

[LayDownThaFunk]

It's not your band so why bother? If they like their setup then leave them be. I know I'd be peed off if a random bloke said we could improve the sound doing X, Y and Z.

[TimR]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1434908543' post='2803766']
It's not your band so why bother? If they like their setup then leave them be. I know I'd be peed off if a random bloke said we could improve the sound doing X, Y and Z.
[/quote]

They didn't though. They were fiddling throughout the set.

There's a difference between a band that sets itself up and just believes it's right and a band who are clearly struggling.

[The Badderer]

[quote]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]So, with no monitors how would you suggest they should have setup the PA so as to hear themselves & not get feedback? Just curious as to me it sounds like they were making the most of a bad situation. I'm by no means a sound engineer so would actually be curious to know. Thanks.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

As someone who's just finished a music production course, I'd be advising them to buy some cheap 2nd hand powered monitors for all of £100-200 so that they could hear themselves (doesn't have to be great quality as it's only for tuning and hearing each other), and then point their PA speakers into the room correctly rather than pointing them at the wall. For the sake of £100-£200 it would improve sound quality massively.

You can experiment with this with your home stereo system by pointing it into the wall and listening to the bounced sound in comparison to the sound you get directly from your speakers.

Edited June 21, 2015 by The Badderer

[ironside1966]

The problem most people who are bad don't realize it. Most of the time the people who just pop out of the audience and give you advice are generally the last people you should be listing too. Anyone with a lot experience of live sound will probably have come to the same conclusion. If a bass player came up to you and stated giving you unsolicited advice you would probably class them has a bit of a dick and it's the same with sound.

[TimR]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1434916504' post='2803857']
The problem most people who are bad don't realize it. Most of the time the people who just pop out of the audience and give you advice are generally the last people you should be listing too. Anyone with a lot experience of live sound will probably have come to the same conclusion. If a bass player came up to you and stated giving you unsolicited advice you would probably class them has a bit of a dick and it's the same with sound.
[/quote]

I don't agree.

It all depends on how you speak to people.

[KevB]

I don't think I'd volunteer my opinion unless it was people who I knew and who I knew would value that opinion. I actually walked out of a venue on Saturday night (4 bands in battle of the bands type scenario, went to show support for our own Chris Sharman) halfway through the last act as the levels were getting stupidly loud. The mix was OKish (except it was getting so loud they were actually drowning out the drummers which takes some doing) but the master output was physically hurting my ears even stood at the back of the room. Headache by the time I got home, raging tinnitus all day Sunday.

[discreet]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1434967805' post='2804173']
Headache by the time I got home, raging tinnitus all day Sunday.
[/quote]

Hate it! I always carry earplugs just in case, but it's ridiculous when you have to wear them just for a pub band (for example). I blame guitarists. You only really need enough power to compete with an acoustic drum kit - why do guitarists use 100W for pub gigs? It's arse-shatteringly loud, especially if there are two of 'em. You only ever need 30W maximum for guitar, imho. *Scampers off*

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1434969096' post='2804186']
Hate it! I always carry earplugs just in case, but it's ridiculous when you have to wear them just for a pub band (for example). I blame guitarists. You only really need enough power to compete with an acoustic drum kit - why do guitarists use 100W for pub gigs? It's arse-shatteringly loud, especially if there are two of 'em. You only ever need 30W maximum for guitar, imho. *Scampers off*
[/quote]depends whether its a valve amp or not and whether the guitarist is miced up, we've just got a new drummer and he's loud, our guitarist had a 125watt Fender soild state amp and it was struggling to be loud enough. I suppose every situation is different

[discreet]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1434970331' post='2804200']
depends whether its a valve amp or not...
[/quote]

Yes, I meant valve amps. SS guitar amps are variable, as you said. Don't see the point in miking up either, unless it's a really big pub.

[KevB]

In my instance I'm not sure what was and wasn't mic'd up but I know Chris's bass combo wasn't and it sounded fine. Then there were 2 further bands on and each was at punishingly high vol. If they weren't mic'd then the sound man was just pandering to them trying to squeeze as much from the PA for the vocal mics as he could just to 'keep up' with the amps. He should have just told them to turn the f*ck down then balanced the vocals from there. The vocals were part drowned out for band 3 (think they were actually weak singers anyway to be fair) then so loud for last band to keep up with backline it was physically hurting my ear drums. I had to make my apologies and leave. I wanted to stay to see who won. I made it all the way through a Motorhead gig in the 80's as well, probably just getting old.

Edited June 22, 2015 by KevB

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1434858859' post='2803340']
It is strange isn`t it, I`ve seen some bands whose sound has been appalling, yet as they`ve played songs the punters knew, have gone down incredibly well. I sometimes wonder if we try and take it too far, getting all the sounds right etc, given this, but I`d never be happy in a band that had a bad sound (though given the racket my lot make this statement may be viewed as a trifle daft).
[/quote]

I think people do go too far some times!

[40hz]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1434969096' post='2804186']


Hate it! I always carry earplugs just in case, but it's ridiculous when you have to wear them just for a pub band (for example). I blame guitarists. You only really need enough power to compete with an acoustic drum kit - why do guitarists use 100W for pub gigs? It's arse-shatteringly loud, especially if there are two of 'em. You only ever need 30W maximum for guitar, imho. *Scampers off*
[/quote]

Totally agree Discreet. I've always said that at small to medium venues a guitarist really doesn't need more than a 30w valve combo or a 50-100w solid state. Anything else is pure overkill. Preferably in a a 1x12 format as well. Those guitarists using anything 2x12 and above start to turn most stages into mud city due to the inherent 'thickness' of the sound.

[dannybuoy]

I went to see a local semi-successful band play their final gig in a local medium-large sized venue. The first half was ruined by the fact the lead guitar was silent, the vocals were too quiet, and the bass was feeding back for the entire duration, killing the rest of the sound. Absolutely shocking and the worst live sound I've ever heard and my friend and I were looking at each other in disbelief and slagging off the sound men (there were two). I felt really sorry for the band as their final gig had been ruined, but nobody else we mentioned it to had noticed whatsoever and the crowd really seemed to enjoy it!!!

Edited June 22, 2015 by dannybuoy

[KevB]

One of the band members was having a grumble that 'they couldn't hear us very well at the other end of the pub' from what one punter told him after our gig on Fri. It was a big L shape room with us at the end of the short arm of the 'L' ! To have had us at sufficient vol at the big end of the L (through the bar as well) we'd have been so loud the folks in front of us would have been forced outside probably. There was room for them to have come a bit closer where the sound was fine if they were that bothered.

[Monckyman]

I'm of the opinion that opinions offered in pubs to unknowns will never be gratefully accepted.
"Never rub another mans rhubarb" is sage advice.

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1434910262' post='2803789']
They didn't though. They were fiddling throughout the set.

There's a difference between a band that sets itself up and just believes it's right and a band who are clearly struggling.
[/quote]

You'll seen 'sound guys' doing the same thing in a pub.... especially on these multiple band charity bills.
Invaribly the next band on will be taking note and TELL the 'engrs' what to do....if only if it is to say..VOX only P,A please...
as I can hear how the are 'mixing' the other bands

[discreet]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1434995660' post='2804546']
"Never rub another man's rhubarb" is sage advice.
[/quote]

Quite. At least not without permission.

I suppose if you offer advice it's tantamount to saying, 'you sound crap and I can do better'. Hardly surprising if people get the hump, really.

[TimR]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1434995866' post='2804551']


You'll seen 'sound guys' doing the same thing in a pub.... especially on these multiple band charity bills.
Invaribly the next band on will be taking note and TELL the 'engrs' what to do....if only if it is to say..VOX only P,A please...
as I can hear how the are 'mixing' the other bands
[/quote]

Are you typing on a phone, that makes no sense

Maybe I'm different to everyone else. I'd rather speak to the right people who are responsible for the bad sound, at the time. It has better results than coming on a forum later on and complaining to the wrong people after the event.

On at least two occasions in the last 30years I have had to point out to a 'soundman' that there was no bass guitar in the mix. Only for them to head off to the stage looking for a failed XLR cable, but only after scowling at me and then suddenly dawning on them that I was right.

Seriously, it's not hard to have a polite word with someone. It's their problem if they don't want to listen.

Edited June 22, 2015 by TimR

[paul_5]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1434908543' post='2803766']
It's not your band so why bother? If they like their setup then leave them be. I know I'd be peed off if a random bloke said we could improve the sound doing X, Y and Z.
[/quote]

I know! Rush covers ain't gonna help nobody!


getting my coat...

[Dad3353]

I was part of the organisation for our local festival (les 3 Elephants; look it up..?); one year we had Keziah Jones booked. I was posted at the console, and watched as his sound engineer took over the desk. The set started with bass and drums; Keziah Jones walked on a couple of minutes later and started to play and sing. Inaudible. Nothing. As dumb as Buster Keaton. Worried looks from some of the public, worried expression on my face. The sound guy was as high as a kite, listening to PFL and fiddling here and there, apparently oblivious to the FOH sound. An American bloke, so I summoned up my English speaking skills to get him to realise there was a problem. It took a couple of songs and a whole lot of cajoling to convince him to set aside his headset, step aside from the desk tower and listen, outside, to what the massed public were hearing. Eventually he stumbled back to the sliders and did the necessary magic to get the star's performance through to the audience. It was touch and go that we (the PA staff...) take over the console completely..! The show went off smoothly from then on; it could be considered to have been a 10-minutes drum'n'bass solo..! We had had no problems during the afternoon's sound check, so it must have been a touch too much 'relaxation' in between times. Happy daze..!

Edited July 11, 2017 by Dad3353