Hopeless live sound - all the gear, no idea.

[The Badderer]

A lot of the time it's easier to get annoyed with the sound engineer than admit you wanted something a certain way but didn't know enough to sort it out with the sound engineer.

However, there are also times where some sound engineers are so focused on what comes out to the FOH that the band are left unable to hear themselves. I'd say a fair bit of this lies in inexperienced bands or sound engineers not knowing enough about what goes on to get their sound check sorted properly.

Some people don't realise what happens if they change their settings without telling the sound guy (with inexperienced people probably because they don't know that they're supposed to). Some people just have a chip on their shoulder having had a couple of rubbish experiences so they think all sound engineers are pains in the arse and don't bother talking with them, they just get arsey and moan.

Edited June 28, 2015 by The Badderer

[mrtcat]

[quote name='The Badderer' timestamp='1435512556' post='2809555']
However, there are also times where some sound engineers are so focused on what comes out to the FOH that the band are left unable to hear themselves. I'd say a fair bit of this lies in inexperienced bands or sound engineers not knowing enough about what goes on to get their sound check sorted properly.
[/quote]

This is a very valid point. Engineers that can put a band in their comfort zone by giving them a nice on stage mix can expect to get a better sound out front as people aren't playing harder or turning up in order to hear themselves. If we go back to the op's initial post though there was no sound engineer. Should you offer advice? Well it's tough as clearly some people here wouldn't want it and others would. You would never know until it was too late if they didn't want your advice. If a band was clearly struggling and I could offer some information that would actually help them then yes I'd probably tentatively approach and start with "please feel free to tell me to mind my own business but...". If I had no pertinent advice that would help and was just thinking "oh my days this sounds crap" i'd keep it to myself as we all know it can be tough to play somewhere with bad acoustics and spend a whole night fighting with the desk only to have your band mates and punters complaining to you about the sound. I think with these guys I would have offered a little advice if they wanted it.

[ironside1966]

Some of bands I in the past is ware far more interested in what’s going out of the PA then getting a decent stage sound, so when it came to the gig the band were unhappy because the haven’t herd what they wanted out of the PA so the assumed it would sound bad also the stage sound was bad because they paid no attention to it and they played badly because they were unhappy. It also made my job a lot harder because the band kept changing the settings throughout the set. Even though there were more professional bands on the same bill and the sounded was good and the members were more then happy with my performance, the sound check time was shorter because the just let me get on with my job and did there’s, I was still regarded has an incompetent idiot who deliberately screed up their sound. More proof that sound engineers are just idiots.

[TimR]

Ironside. You might want to read that over, edit the spelling, grammar, punctuation and paragraphing. It's very difficult to understand.

I hope your mixing skills are better

Personally as long as I can hear the guitar and vocals there's not a great deal that can go wrong with on-stage sound. I've really never had an issue that wasn't fixed by asking for a bit more of X in the monitor.

I think the worst experience I've had is when the bass amp has bled into the kick drum mic. and the engineer hasn't identified it.

Live sound is all about experience and I think introducing yourself and talking to the sound engineer as soon as you arrive is key.

[Lozz196]

I know what my sound needs to be like out front, so as long as my DI-box is set to that, irrespective of what I hear on stage, I`m happy. But a lot of the time I think the problem is bands not having someone with them to listen to the soundcheck/performance. At a gig I played yesterday the band on before us were great, yet the vox were very indistinct. The desk had been set like that at soundcheck then left. When I saw the guy who was operating the desk I just asked if he could crisp them up a bit - add highs/remove lows, and remove any reverb. He did, obviously I couldn`t hear how it sounded for our set, but for the next band it was much better and our usual helper - the drummers wife - said much the same for our vox too.

Now if the first band had had someone along working with them on the sound, well they would have benefited from that. I`d have made the observations myself during their set but the only way to speak to the man on the desk was by being on stage and that would have been a bit off, charging on stage just to get their vox sounding better, irrespective of good intentions.

So really it boils down to a couple of things for me, know the sound you want out front from your instruments, then send it there, and have someone along with an ear for the total mix.

[largo]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1434896550' post='2803657']
So, with no monitors how would you suggest they should have setup the PA so as to hear themselves & not get feedback? Just curious as to me it sounds like they were making the most of a bad situation. I'm by no means a sound engineer so would actually be curious to know. Thanks.
[/quote]

Still no answer to my original question, just two replies saying they should buy monitors. Reasonable reply but doesn't answer the question. So, band turns up, monitor doesn't work and they have to make the best of a bad lot. How would you setup the PA in this instance? Still curious.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1435531194' post='2809839']
Still no answer to my original question, just two replies saying they should buy monitors. Reasonable reply but doesn't answer the question. So, band turns up, monitor doesn't work and they have to make the best of a bad lot. How would you setup the PA in this instance? Still curious.
[/quote]

A top each side of the stage, level with the mic's, turned inwards slightly. That's using 'em as a sort of 'side fill'. A bit limited before feedback from the mic's, but that's what 'the best of a bad job' is, isn't it..? The EQ should be that as normal for FOH, just keep the levels down. Best if only vox needs monitoring, but other instruments won't hurt too much. Not ideal for a festival, but works fine in small/medium halls. I've done this for years with our pop/rock covers band, and with a previous ska/punk/rock outfit with mic'ed up 3-man brass section.
Of course, if the PA is completely naff, nothing much will help.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Dad3353

[hairychris]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1435474549' post='2809015']
They could just use modelling amps which sound great at any volume and are cheaper than valve amps. Infact they normally sound better than valve amps because guitar valve amps generally only sound their absolute best at one particular volume level and where miced up have modulation/reverb/delay effects applied to the miced up sound.
[/quote]

No, I'll disagree with that. You have to spend a lot of money on a modeller to get anywhere near the quality of tone of a decent amp. Line 6 and Kemper stuff, especially, are missing something around the mids in a live situation. I've had a chat with a couple of venue engineers about this as I thought that I wasn't hearing things correctly and they had found the same thing. Note: not a scientific conclusion!

There is bite that a well dialed-in tube amp can get you, especially in a small or limited PA situation, that a modeller cannot do. In these situations you are also going to hit possible issues with questionable engineers (thankfully most that I've come across are decent!) and in the final case you can only run the PA for vocals & kick and don't mic guitars & bass. In this case your modeller is stuck unless you're using a power amp & cab with it.

I'm coming from the direction of being in heavy bands, with all the members having good rehearsal tones set on good quality equipment, so in live situations the tweaking on our end is minimal.

Modellers are getting better all the time for sure, and they work really well in recorded mixes or live where you have a *very* good PA. Small venue stuff? Not as much.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1435527058' post='2809777']
Ironside. You might want to read that over, edit the spelling, grammar, punctuation and paragraphing. It's very difficult to understand.

I hope your mixing skills are better

Personally as long as I can hear the guitar and vocals there's not a great deal that can go wrong with on-stage sound. I've really never had an issue that wasn't fixed by asking for a bit more of X in the monitor.

I think the worst experience I've had is when the bass amp has bled into the kick drum mic. and the engineer hasn't identified it.

Live sound is all about experience and I think introducing yourself and talking to the sound engineer as soon as you arrive is key.
[/quote]

My experience spans over 30 years, over a decade of which was working has a professional sound engineer. I have engineered anything from small venues to large outdoor events, during that time I was notching up over 200 jobs a year.
I am well aware of my bad spelling, grammar and punctuation it is a problem I have had all my life but I fail to see how it is any way an indication that I may not have the skills or the intelligence to be a competent and professional sound engineer. I am now retired from live music because of a heart condition but despite my health and my poor English skills I still managed to get a first class hon’s degree in music technology.

Maybe I should bow down to your greater knowledge and experience and clearly better punctuation.

Edited June 29, 2015 by ironside1966

[TimR]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1435584607' post='2810247']


My experience spans over 30 years, over a decade of which was working has a professional sound engineer. I have engineered anything from small venues to large outdoor events, during that time I was notching up over 200 jobs a year.
I am well aware of my bad spelling, grammar and punctuation it is a problem I have had all my life but I fail to see how it is any way an indication that I may not have the skills or the intelligence to be a competent and professional sound engineer. I am now retired from live music because of a heart condition but despite my health and my poor English skills I still managed to get a first class hon’s degree in music technology.

Maybe I should bow down to your greater knowledge and experience and clearly better punctuation.
[/quote]

That's fine. Just your previous post probably makes some very good points but I just can't read or understand it. I did add a smiley. I didn't mean to cause offence just wanted you to rewrite your post so I could read and understand it.

I assumed it was auto corrected by your phone

Edited June 29, 2015 by TimR

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='hairychris' timestamp='1435573455' post='2810054']
No, I'll disagree with that. You have to spend a lot of money on a modeller to get anywhere near the quality of tone of a decent amp. Line 6 and Kemper stuff, especially, are missing something around the mids in a live situation. I've had a chat with a couple of venue engineers about this as I thought that I wasn't hearing things correctly and they had found the same thing. Note: not a scientific conclusion!

There is bite that a well dialed-in tube amp can get you, especially in a small or limited PA situation, that a modeller cannot do. In these situations you are also going to hit possible issues with questionable engineers (thankfully most that I've come across are decent!) and in the final case you can only run the PA for vocals & kick and don't mic guitars & bass. In this case your modeller is stuck unless you're using a power amp & cab with it.
[/quote]

Firstly I'd always use a modelling amp through a guitar cab since while (IMO) modelers can do a pretty much perfect job of simulating the amp, the speaker is a trickier beast. Secondly get a good sound is very dependent on using the right model for the job with the right settings and avoiding the temptation to use the gazillion effects that most of them have. Specifically its generally better to use a lower gain model and drive it hard because many of the "high gain" models have too much pre-amp distortion and too little power amp distortion dialled into the model and its the latter that provides the "something around the mids" you mention.

Edited July 2, 2015 by bassman7755

[mrtcat]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1435455368' post='2808989']
I'd love to, but our eldest is a bit unique, I reckon, for many reasons. Our 2nd guitar is maybe unusual, too, in that he is rather more restrained than some, despite his excellent gear. A touch of timidity, a slight lack of confidence, who knows..? Either way, neither of them are into 'noise wars' per se, but can poke out a pretty mean 'Highway to Hell' if called upon. Our repertoire is not especially soft, either, with Ava Adore, Tostaky, Killing in the name of, and more, but one doesn't have to deafen everyone, the power is in the composition and arrangement already. Maybe we're just lucky.
[/quote]
They're not unusual. Yes they are in the minority but it's just a good indication that they adopt a professional attitude. Decent pros play for the song and they have nothing to prove other than how professional they are, which is why they are a pro. Guitarists that can't tame volume are just amateurish morons, regardless of how talented they are. The whole "the amp needs to be cranked to sound good" argument, for me, just says "you're too pig headed to realise you either have the wrong amp with you for this gig or you're too dumb to see that if it only sounds good cranked you are going to have to compromise on your sound a little for the benefit of absolutely everyone else (audience, band mates and the reputation of your band)". Amateurs with a pro attitude are far less common but a really valuable asset to a band.

Edited July 2, 2015 by mrtcat

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='40hz' timestamp='1434973499' post='2804243']
Totally agree Discreet. I've always said that at small to medium venues a guitarist really doesn't need more than a 30w valve combo or a 50-100w solid state. Anything else is pure overkill. Preferably in a a 1x12 format as well.
[/quote] With the greatest of respect: No, no, no, no, no. There is [b]no such thing[/b] as inappropriate power, only inappropriate volume. Lots of people prefer the sound of big amps turned down, instead of the sound of little amps turned up. On top of that, if you are a guitarist and you want a genuinely clean valve sound to compete with a drummer then a 30W amp isn't going to cut it. I get really fed up with bassists making presumptions about what other gear is "acceptable" for other musicians to use. Having a 100W amp is not a problem. Having a 400W amp is not a problem. Playing your amp at an inappropriate volume is the problem, and the two are [i]absolutely[/i] not the same. Stop judging people on what the technical spec says and start judging them on what they're actually doing instead.

[hairychris]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1435819582' post='2812621']
Firstly I'd always use a modelling amp through a guitar cab since while (IMO) modelers can do a pretty much perfect job of simulating the amp, the speaker is a trickier beast. Secondly get a good sound is very dependent on using the right model for the job with the right settings and avoiding the temptation to use the gazillion effects that most of them have. Specifically its generally better to use a lower gain model and drive it hard because many of the "high gain" models have too much pre-amp distortion and too little power amp distortion dialled into the model and its the latter that provides the "something around the mids" you mention.
[/quote]

I agree with you, but the guys from the OP were DI-ing and the chap I responded to implied the same (I think!). Adding a power amp and a cab also somewhat knocks potability! Oh, and I am still not convinced by this setup either.

EDIT: Back to the original question, monitoring is always going to be a massive problem if you run DI into FoH without monitors. Either add monitors (ahem) or run amps on stage.

Your 2nd point is absolutely true with amps and pedals as well, but modellers seem to really bring out the worst in people. I have heard far too many guitarists with utterly crap sound because they OD on the gain or distortion. Hell, that was me at one point too... but once I got better gear I also learned how to use it more efficiently, heh. It's the difference between a bedroom and a band tone methinks.

Edited July 2, 2015 by hairychris

[discreet]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1435823323' post='2812658']
Stop judging people on what the technical spec says and start judging them on what they're actually doing instead.
[/quote]

I've been judging guitarists for a long time and what some of them actually do is use a 100W half stack at a pub gig and have it arse-shatteringly loud 'otherwise I can't get my sound'. In this case a 15W amp would be more appropriate, IMHO. If a guitarist uses a 1000W rig but can get 'his sound' at a reasonable and usable level, then I have no problem with that.

Edited July 2, 2015 by discreet

[4-string-thing]

I used to play in a band where both guitarists used 200w Blackstar half stacks, even in smallish pub gigs. Their response when I pointed out that they were way too loud was "you need to get a bigger amp" My answer to that was "why?, so we can deafen the audience as well as ourselves" I didn't hang around too long, I decided I liked listening to music too much, and wanted to be able to do so til my old age.... In my experience, the band being too loud on stage is the bane of any sound engineers life. As for the OP, a quiet, polite offer of help would probably have been ok, provided the band weren't complete knuckle-draggers...

[KevB]

Know what you mean 4-string-thing. It hasn't been much of a problem to me but an old mate of mine (gtr/vox) joined a classic rock combo a couple of yrs back and asked me to come check them out once they got gigging. Not sure what he uses, sensible sized gtr combo that was fine in the mix UNTIL his lead gtr/vox bandmate started up on some huge Eden valve amp through a 4x12 cab. It not only drowned out other instruments but reduced both of their vocals to near lip-reading levels. I did diplomatically mention it to him but then I saw them nearly a year later and little seemed to have changed, though the vox had been pumped up a bit there was no sign of problem guitar being turned down from the squeally harmonics drenched overdriven barrage of the previous time. I'm amazed he's still with them, I'd have walked by now.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1435830915' post='2812765']
I've been judging guitarists for a long time and what some of them actually do is use a 100W half stack at a pub gig and have it arse-shatteringly loud 'otherwise I can't get my sound'. In this case a 15W amp would be more appropriate, IMHO.[/quote]
Well, yes. That's what some guitarists do. But its the nonsense blanket statement of "no guitarist needs more than 30W" that gets thrown about (mainly by bassists) that gets my goat. The guys who have the 100W half stack too loud would probably find a different way to ruin the sound if they were using a 15W amp. Its not the wattage that's the problem, its the idiots using it. [quote] If a guitarist uses a 1000W rig but can get 'his sound' at a reasonable and usable level, then I have no problem with that.
[/quote] This is my point

[KevB]

I wasn't sure what my guitarists use in my band (goes to show how much notice I take of these things) so I just checked online as they are quite distinctive to look at (tweed exterior), and they both use identical combos with identical multifx pedals. I believe they use Fender Hotrodeluxes which appear to be rated at 80W and are fairly compact valve 1x12's. When we did our first set up with our own PA & backline one afternoon in a working men's club function room (quite a decent sized space) to check it all worked before we started gigging they invited someone who had mixed bands and been in bands to come along and give us feedback on levels as we ran through a set. He mentioned at least 4 times that the guitars were 'too loud' which didn't surprise me as I'd thought that in rehearsal but was looking for a 2nd opinion before said anything. They seem to have actually listened and reigned it in for the 2 gigs to date we've done and we've had some positive feedback from punters about the overall sound so I think we are on track now.

[Beer of the Bass]

I think this is very dependent on the style of the band. In the band I play guitar in, I can rarely turn my 15 watt 1x10" combo up past squeaky-clean without being too loud. We're quite a busy sounding band and the guitar works best for us if it sits in the mix rather than on top of it, so a three-piece rock band might be different. It's not a major hassle for me as clean guitar works well in that band and I'll use a pedal on some songs, but I wouldn't be able to depend on cranking an amp into power-amp breakup on every gig, fun though that sound can be.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='hairychris' timestamp='1435829429' post='2812740']
I agree with you, but the guys from the OP were DI-ing and the chap I responded to implied the same (I think!). Adding a power amp and a cab also somewhat knocks potability! Oh, and I am still not convinced by this setup either.
[/quote]

Fair point but I was proposing modelling amps as an alternative solution to the "I cant get my sound unless I turn it up" problem, not as a way of dispensing with on stage amps completely. In that capacity they perform admirably IMO and are probably going to have a portability edge over even a small valve amp.

I wouldnt recommend DIing a guitar modelling setup as anything other than an emergency/extreme convenience measure and on the odd occasion where I've played a modelling setup at a larger gig with a PA I've always had them mic up the speaker just like any other guitar rig. Without a real guitar speaker in the chain your definitely missing something from the sound.

[quote]
Your 2nd point is absolutely true with amps and pedals as well, but modellers seem to really bring out the worst in people. I have heard far too many guitarists with utterly crap sound because they OD on the gain or distortion. Hell, that was me at one point too... but once I got better gear I also learned how to use it more efficiently, heh. It's the difference between a bedroom and a band tone methinks.
[/quote]

Too true, modern modellers capture the core amp characteristics very accurately so to get the best out of them you have understand how to use the real amp to some degree (or at least the general class of amplifier) - treat a modeller like a glorified distortion pedal and its going to end up sounding like one. Obviously the model designers often take the opportunity to widen the operating parameters of the model compared to the real thing e.g. more extreme EQ, more gain range etc so you have to take this into account when setting up a sound, and yes using far too much gain is the classic error.

Some of the models I've used are brilliant though. The Line 6 Plexi variac model (usually somewhat inappropriately named "high gain") example is a thing of beauty: clean with a hint of shimmery break up when used on very low gain/guitar vol backed off, big ringing AC/DC style crunch when driven a bit more through to screaming yet defined lead sound when pushed. So I can rock up to a variety of venues and have all those sounds on tap all with independent relative volumes and all sounding the same within a big range of overall volume levels. Youd be hard pushed to do that with any real valve amp setup.

Edited July 2, 2015 by bassman7755

[discreet]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1435834431' post='2812825']
This is my point
[/quote]

Fair enough, but frankly I've rarely encountered a guitarist with a large amp that doesn't abuse its power. Also I've met few guitarists who are sensitive to the needs of the overall sound of a band, whether it be economy of playing, volume, or frequency encroachment. So generally speaking (and from my own experience) I'd say an [i]average [/i]guitarist [i]probably [/i]needs no more than a 30W amp in [i]most [/i]circumstances... this either means that most guitarists are incapable of doing the right thing, OR I've just been unlucky with guitarists, OR I just don't revolve in those circles where the decent guitarists hang out... sorry if this seems arsy or whatever, but I have a fascination with guitarists and their habits, being a guitarist myself in other lives...

Edited July 2, 2015 by discreet

[Beer of the Bass]

I haven't played the higher-end modelling setups or delved very deeply into the ones I've played in rehearsal spaces, but for the sounds I like even a good quality traditional SS amp usually gets me closer than the modellers. Because my own amp is based on a Fender Princeton Reverb, the sound of a blackface fender combo is my goal. So far, each time I've used this setting on a modelling amp it feels like they've overdone the characteristics of a blackface amp (scooped mids, glassy treble etc.) in order to make the sound recognisable and distinct from the other models, and it comes across almost as a caricature of that sound.
I'm sure that when you get up into the better modelling setups this is less of an issue, but on the Line-6 and Vox combos I've tried I haven't quite managed to come up with a variant of that sound that I enjoy.

[40hz]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1435823323' post='2812658']
With the greatest of respect: No, no, no, no, no. There is [b]no such thing[/b] as inappropriate power, only inappropriate volume. Lots of people prefer the sound of big amps turned down, instead of the sound of little amps turned up. On top of that, if you are a guitarist and you want a genuinely clean valve sound to compete with a drummer then a 30W amp isn't going to cut it. I get really fed up with bassists making presumptions about what other gear is "acceptable" for other musicians to use. Having a 100W amp is not a problem. Having a 400W amp is not a problem. Playing your amp at an inappropriate volume is the problem, and the two are [i]absolutely[/i] not the same. Stop judging people on what the technical spec says and start judging them on what they're actually doing instead.
[/quote]

Erm sorry? Just airing my opinion and experience. No need to get so angry. Of course I'm going to have an opinion on what works, having shared stages with guitarists using all types of gear. IMO 30-50w valve is the sweet spot. Sorry you disagree.

Edited July 2, 2015 by 40hz

[ironside1966]

I have said this many times but it is always worth repeating. A Sound check is not about making your instrument sound great out front its about making sure that the band are happy with the stage sound, getting levels and making sure there is no foreseeable problems.
A great sound is only great if it works in context of the mix; if it is too loud or too big it’s not a good sound. Just has a musician who overplays may be a good guitar player but a bad musician. Some players like the physical felling they get from standing in front of a loud amp but often the quieter sound can be far better in a band context.
Working with musicians is easy because they’re tone and what they play works well in the band context because they leave space for the other instruments to cut through.