Hopeless live sound - all the gear, no idea.

[lojo]

A freindy helpful basschat basic guide to setting up a pub gig pa would be a good thing if anyone has the knowledge and inclination.

The last one I did got really packed and we lost control of the good sound we started with.

Things like eq'ing vocals out of bass ranges and to avoid rumble , getting the keys and guitar to sit under the vocal , speaker positioning etc.

I like to trickle everything into to pa to help a good balance at low volume , whereas many think just turn up amps and compete , I've no idea if I'm right or not.

[discreet]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1435037878' post='2804790']
I like to trickle everything into to pa to help a good balance at low volume , whereas many think just turn up amps and compete, I've no idea if I'm right or not.
[/quote]

This can work really well IF everyone can play quietly enough (I'm looking at you, drums. And guitar...)

Edited June 23, 2015 by discreet

[tinyd]

I think the best approach to broaching the subject of sh*te sound with the band is something along the lines of "Nice set guys - it sounds a bit muddy at the back where I was standing, do you need any help with the sound?". They may refuse, but only complete c*cks would respond with any hostility to an approach like that.

[TimR]

[quote name='tinyd' timestamp='1435050112' post='2804863']
I think the best approach to broaching the subject of sh*te sound with the band is something along the lines of "Nice set guys - it sounds a bit muddy at the back where I was standing, do you need any help with the sound?". They may refuse, but only complete c*cks would respond with any hostility to an approach like that.
[/quote]

Precisely. It's all about your approach.

[ironside1966]

I can’t imagine any band letting a complete stranger loose on the PA. Anyone who runs a PA would go mad if a complete stranger touched their desk. So trying to touch someone else’s desk is a complete no no. Just because some one talks a good game doesn’t mean they are any good, some of the worst sound engineers I have met a capable of talking a load of technical b=======. I would go so far as to say if I had to work with an engineer who tried to impress me with their technical knowledge warning bells would start to ring, has for letting a stranger loose on my PA no chance.

Edited June 23, 2015 by ironside1966

[TimR]

"Letting a stranger loose on my PA" isn't the same as "Taking some advice on a mix."

I love the Internet.

Edited June 23, 2015 by TimR

[No lust in Jazz]

Back in the days of doing our own PA - we'd get trusted friends to advise us, we'd adjust PA and playing volumes accordingly - surely everyone does this?

I think that at least one of the band has to have some interest in PA and live sound so that at least vocals are clear without ringing or feedback and the general physics are obeyed.

We now pay a soundman for all gigs,

This doesn't explain a Foo Fighters gig at the MEN a few years ago where they had the gear, the crew, the attitude and the poorest live sound that I've ever come across.

[PaulWarning]

I strongly suspect that some sound men suffer from one or more of the following,
they're hearing is shot
they're wearing cheap ear plugs
they're either pissed or high
they think a loud bass drum is all anyone wants to hear
they don't know what they're doing
someone in the band has pissed them off

[ironside1966]

[size=4][font="Calibri"][color="#000000"]That's my point, there are so many deluded experts out there, so who do you trust. [/color][/font][/size]
[size=4][font="Calibri"][color="#000000"]Giving an opinion on the sound is one thing but saying you sound is sh++ and I can help you sort it is another no mater how you put. [/color][/font][/size]
[font="Calibri"][size=4][color="#000000"]I would never advice like that at a gig, [/color][/size][color=black][font=Calibri][size=4]Without knowing the in and outs PA, what the PA is capable of, how and why it is set up that way, how everything is running there is a danger of blowing the horns or a speakers. [/size][/font][/color][size=4][color="#000000"]I go to a gig to enjoy has a member of an audience. I don't feel the need for anyone to know my musical credentials. [/color][/size][/font]

Edited June 23, 2015 by ironside1966

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1434998130' post='2804593']
Are you typing on a phone, that makes no sense

Maybe I'm different to everyone else. I'd rather speak to the right people who are responsible for the bad sound, at the time. It has better results than coming on a forum later on and complaining to the wrong people after the event.

On at least two occasions in the last 30years I have had to point out to a 'soundman' that there was no bass guitar in the mix. Only for them to head off to the stage looking for a failed XLR cable, but only after scowling at me and then suddenly dawning on them that I was right.

Seriously, it's not hard to have a polite word with someone. It's their problem if they don't want to listen.
[/quote]

I was, but I'll try and make it clearer. Many sound guys have the gear but no ear. What ever made them pursue this venture, I don't know
but it certainly isn't a career as they'd never get work. However, they have got the gig..and I suspect it is because they either know someone, or
are extremely cheap or even free, so they end up as the man 'in charge'. Best thing is to either direct them or take them out of the loop as much as possible
and in this case, the band saw and heard what they were doing and basically said just give us vocals as they'll be no gain mic'ing anything as
A) you don't know what you are doing
and B ) your gear isn't upto making any difference in this pub anyway..
so C ) leave us alone and we'll tell you how much we want from the vox mics..

[Monckyman]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1435066553' post='2805057']
I strongly suspect that some musicians suffer from one or more of the following,
they're hearing is shot
they're wearing cheap ear plugs
they're either pissed or high
they think a loud bass drum is all anyone wants to hear
they don't know what they're doing
someone in the band has pissed them off
[/quote]
Fixed that for ya.

[Monckyman]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1435085270' post='2805362']
I was, but I'll try and make it clearer. Many sound guys have the gear but no ear. What ever made them pursue this venture, I don't know
but it certainly isn't a career as they'd never get work. However, they have got the gig..and I suspect it is because they either know someone, or
are extremely cheap or even free, so they end up as the man 'in charge'. Best thing is to either direct them or take them out of the loop as much as possible
and in this case, the band saw and heard what they were doing and basically said just give us vocals as they'll be no gain mic'ing anything as
A) you don't know what you are doing
and B ) your gear isn't upto making any difference in this pub anyway..
so C ) leave us alone and we'll tell you how much we want from the vox mics..
[/quote]
This sounds familiar...

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1435131638' post='2805674']
Fixed that for ya.
[/quote]yeah that as well

[ubit]

[quote name='40hz' timestamp='1434973499' post='2804243']


Totally agree Discreet. I've always said that at small to medium venues a guitarist really doesn't need more than a 30w valve combo or a 50-100w solid state. Anything else is pure overkill. Preferably in a a 1x12 format as well. Those guitarists using anything 2x12 and above start to turn most stages into mud city due to the inherent 'thickness' of the sound.
[/quote]

Not everyone can be like you and be able to afford different amps for different sized venues though. Our guitarist has a 100w amp, which he has used in small pubs and large halls and even outdoor events.

[40hz]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1435429140' post='2808756']
Not everyone can be like you and be able to afford different amps for different sized venues though. Our guitarist has a 100w amp, which he has used in small pubs and large halls and even outdoor events.
[/quote]

Sorry?? Where did I say I have multiple amps for differing venues?? And at any rate at large venues, a smaller amp can be miked up and fed through p.a.

[Dad3353]

The potential power of an amp is something of a red herring, I'd say. Our eldest uses a mesa Stereo Simul 2:90, that's 2 x 90 watts of Mesa valves. It's driven by a Tri-Axis preamp and G-Force fx unit. There is a volume knob (well, two, in fact...). Vincent, guitar-2, has a 100w marshall. Our bass amp is a 200w Hiwatt. The PA we use, in pubs and outdoors, is a 2 x 300w BST unit; one channel for FOH (so 300w...), the other for vocal foldback. We're not too loud, indoors or out. The volume has to be in adequation with the venue, and that's what the volume knobs are for. I'm the drummer, and I can fill a hall if required, or play softly enough for a small pub. There's no big secret to it; if the gear is badly used, it'll be naff. If used wisely, good pro gear can do it all. As goes the expression, it's all in the fingers.

[40hz]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1435441870' post='2808894']
The potential power of an amp is something of a red herring, I'd say. Our eldest uses a mesa Stereo Simul 2:90, that's 2 x 90 watts of Mesa valves. It's driven by a Tri-Axis preamp and G-Force fx unit. There is a volume knob (well, two, in fact...). Vincent, guitar-2, has a 100w marshall. Our bass amp is a 200w Hiwatt. The PA we use, in pubs and outdoors, is a 2 x 300w BST unit; one channel for FOH (so 300w...), the other for vocal foldback. We're not too loud, indoors or out. The volume has to be in adequation with the venue, and that's what the volume knobs are for. I'm the drummer, and I can fill a hall if required, or play softly enough for a small pub. There's no big secret to it; if the gear is badly used, it'll be naff. If used wisely, good pro gear can do it all. As goes the expression, it's all in the fingers.
[/quote]

Fair play Dad! Sounds like your guitarist posseses some restraint and a feel for the band overall! Can you tell me where I can find another who can do that for my band please!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='40hz' timestamp='1435452784' post='2808982']
Fair play Dad! Sounds like your guitarist posseses some restraint and a feel for the band overall! Can you tell me where I can find another who can do that for my band please!
[/quote]

I'd love to, but our eldest is a bit unique, I reckon, for many reasons. Our 2nd guitar is maybe unusual, too, in that he is rather more restrained than some, despite his excellent gear. A touch of timidity, a slight lack of confidence, who knows..? Either way, neither of them are into 'noise wars' per se, but can poke out a pretty mean 'Highway to Hell' if called upon. Our repertoire is not especially soft, either, with Ava Adore, Tostaky, Killing in the name of, and more, but one doesn't have to deafen everyone, the power is in the composition and arrangement already. Maybe we're just lucky.

[discreet]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1435455368' post='2808989']
...one doesn't have to deafen everyone, the power is in the composition and arrangement already.
[/quote]

Yes, and in the sound. You don't have to be loud to be heavy.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1435455662' post='2808991']
Yes, and in the sound. You don't have to be loud to be heavy.
[/quote]

[sharedmedia=core:attachments:167485]

Edited June 28, 2015 by Dad3353

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1435429140' post='2808756']
Not everyone can be like you and be able to afford different amps for different sized venues though. Our guitarist has a 100w amp, which he has used in small pubs and large halls and even outdoor events.
[/quote]

They could just use modelling amps which sound great at any volume and are cheaper than valve amps. Infact they normally sound better than valve amps because guitar valve amps generally only sound their absolute best at one particular volume level and where miced up have modulation/reverb/delay effects applied to the miced up sound.

Edited June 28, 2015 by bassman7755

[mike257]

The amount of sound engineer bashing I see on this and other forums these days, and the general attitude that we are all clueless pricks out to sabotage your gigs or massage our own egos is just ridiculous. I don't know a single fellow engineer that doesn't take pride in their work and try and make every gig sound the best they can with the tools available to them.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1435455662' post='2808991']
You don't have to be loud to be heavy.
[/quote]

The voice of reason

[mrtcat]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1435495170' post='2809302']
The amount of sound engineer bashing I see on this and other forums these days, and the general attitude that we are all clueless pricks out to sabotage your gigs or massage our own egos is just ridiculous. I don't know a single fellow engineer that doesn't take pride in their work and try and make every gig sound the best they can with the tools available to them.
[/quote]
I agree. Although maybe in a slightly more reserved way. I do sound a lot and have studied hard to give myself as much knowledge and experience. I think I'm half decent now and can help bands to sound their best. I was once inexperienced and had limited knowledge but at that time I charged accordingly. I have accepted lots of advice along the way and have also come across some really arrogant musicians. Luckily these have been in the minority and I've worked with some lovely people. The real pros have generally all been really helpful, supportive and appreciated. It's the amateurs that think they should be pros that are usually hardest to deal with as they're usually much more precious about "their sound" which is often not a sound that works well for the overall mix. The best guys I ever worked with were Gregg and Matt Bisonette who were just the nicest guys ever. The worst was a bass player in a wedding band from East Grinstead. Complained about everything and couldn't get a decent sound from an Aguila DB750 into DB212 and a Stage one streamer.

[TimR]

Does seem a bit strange.

If you're continually coming into contact with sound engineers who can't get a decent sound from your band it's probably time to look at the common factor.