Smooth Hound Innovations Digital Wireless Guitar System

[FinnDave]

30 minutes ago, SmoothHoundChris said:

Other things that can cause range problems include putting the transmitter in your pocket (@FinnDave!!), in fact anything that doesn't give the transmitter space to radiate in to (had a case with a rear facing guitar socket that caused the transmitter to be pressed against the chap's belly). Make sure you've got your antennas turned up and away from the metal case in a vertical 'V'.

 

Yeah, the antennae are always like that, and as the amp is behind me, the tx in my pockets is facing it, anyway, no problems in the last couple of years since I bought it.

[Woodinblack]

27 minutes ago, Gottastopbuyinggear said:

 I quite often leave the antennae flat against the receiver (which is on my pedal board) as otherwise our singer will almost certainly jump on it and snap them off. 

Yeh - my singer did!

[intime-nick]

The majority of problems I’ve found when working with bands who use a lot of wireless guitar gear, especially digital 2.4Ghz stuff, is generally not a lack of how their individual kit works but more how the whole system interacts and the limitations of the technology they’re using in the environment they’re playing in. Small pub gigs with everything crammed together with multiple wireless systems, routers for the digital mixer, WiFi hotspots, mobiles etc etc make for a veritable RF sh1tstorm.   It can be managed up to a point of course, and the advice from @SmoothHoundChris is spot on.  

My own personal experience having used guitar wireless systems from very early single channel VHF stuff through the line 6 G30  to G90 products and now the Smoothound is that I have had minimal issues compared to all the other systems in crowded RF environments most of which would have previously wiped out the signal.  I find the frequency agile tech in the Smoothound to be far more reliable than scanning and then picking a free channel which may or may not become crowded after you start playing.  All systems have limitations of course,  but I haven’t found one yet with the Smoothound in the environments we play in. 

I use a strap mount for the transmitter with a short patch lead to my basses as the transmitter doesn’t fit in the recessed jack socket on my Vigier Passion IV  (it fits all the others - the Vigier is a bit of an oddity but it’s a great bass)

[EBS_freak]

The scanning technology is fine for most who want to run up to say four channels - but anything more than that you are going to need some considered radio planning.

For example, I run 14 wireless devices and two wireless access points with my band - there's no way that the scan function would get those running intermodulation free - but appreciate that my setup is not typical.

I'm guessing the Smooth Hound is very much in the consumer camp - or maybe the prosumer camp at a push but is unlikely to find itself on bigger stages with lots of wireless due to the inability to tune specific frequencies.

This is also true of most of 2.4/5ghz stuff - so is not really a shortfall of the Smooth Hound - Line 6 is all fixed frequency also. Again, although used in some professional environments, you are more likely to see the likes of Lectrosonics, Sennheisers and Shures in play.

I think sometimes you just have to accept when you are using the free for all wifi channels, there may be instances where you can't go wireless. It's how you are prepped for that situation that counts!

The ability to control rf output is critical though. People think more is better when in reality you can get a lot more stable connections if you aren't boiling up a melting pot of RF. You only have to look at how much Shure ULXD and Axient you can get into such a small section of the rf spectrum - but they are reliant on working at 1mW as opposed to 10mW+.

[funkyjimbob]

@SmoothHoundChris it is me you are talking to so thanks for the further info. just thought I'd try on here to see if anyone else could offer any advice as to why I may be getting issues. I am going to go early to our next gig and try and find out what the issues are. 

[MoJoKe]

12 hours ago, intime-nick said:

The majority of problems I’ve found when working with bands who use a lot of wireless guitar gear, especially digital 2.4Ghz stuff, is generally not a lack of how their individual kit works but more how the whole system interacts and the limitations of the technology they’re using in the environment they’re playing in. Small pub gigs with everything crammed together with multiple wireless systems, routers for the digital mixer, WiFi hotspots, mobiles etc etc make for a veritable RF sh1tstorm.   It can be managed up to a point of course, and the advice from @SmoothHoundChris is spot on.

+100   I have a lot of experience in WiFi installation, having done many major survey/installation projects for retail chains, stadiums, holiday parks etc...  The vast majority of WiFi still relies on 2.4Ghz, and in an average city centre club venue, there will be at least 200 smartphones, all permanently scanning for a network to connect to, the venue will have maybe 2-3 access points; if you switch on a network scanner you will probably see the SSIDs for the neighbouring 10-20 businesses/homes, where there will probably be several APs for each business network.  So, before you even start to talk about what is on stage, there are 250+ devices competing for available RF, all in a relatively small box, surrounded by glass, brick, stone, metal, water pipes, electrical cables.. and lots and lots of people, soaking it up, shielding it and bouncing it around...  So, in this world of commercial wifi, the Access Points which can deal with the maximum number of consecutive connection attempts and shout the loudest get the signal...

Little wonder then, that a tiny transmitter in the player's back pocket talking to any 2.4Ghz receiver, with tiny 3" antennae, stuck on a pedalboard, which barely protrude above the surrounding metal boxed effects pedals, works at all.....

Now, if you stuck it at the top of a 2m step ladder in the middle of a field miles from anywhere, with no mobile reception or HT pylons anywhere nearby, it'll absolutely work brilliantly!

As said by @EBS_freak  All you can do is ensure all of your band's gear has the best chance of working together, try to have some level of control over the channels they all use, or resort to the ultimate connectivity of a cable!

[funkyjimbob]

But yet the system works fine at gigs outside of that particular bands setup (when playing with other bands) and also at home (I live in an apartment in a town centre where when scanning for Wifi channels before I found about 35 AP's of surrounding apartments and businesses)

[funkyjimbob]

12 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

The scanning technology is fine for most who want to run up to say four channels - but anything more than that you are going to need some considered radio planning.

For example, I run 14 wireless devices and two wireless access points with my band - there's no way that the scan function would get those running intermodulation free - but appreciate that my setup is not typical.

I'm guessing the Smooth Hound is very much in the consumer camp - or maybe the prosumer camp at a push but is unlikely to find itself on bigger stages with lots of wireless due to the inability to tune specific frequencies.

This is also true of most of 2.4/5ghz stuff - so is not really a shortfall of the Smooth Hound - Line 6 is all fixed frequency also. Again, although used in some professional environments, you are more likely to see the likes of Lectrosonics, Sennheisers and Shures in play.

I think sometimes you just have to accept when you are using the free for all wifi channels, there may be instances where you can't go wireless. It's how you are prepped for that situation that counts!

The ability to control rf output is critical though. People think more is better when in reality you can get a lot more stable connections if you aren't boiling up a melting pot of RF. You only have to look at how much Shure ULXD and Axient you can get into such a small section of the rf spectrum - but they are reliant on working at 1mW as opposed to 10mW+.

 

I'm going to invest in a splitter so I have the choice of wired / wireless I think. 

[SmoothHoundChris]

20 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

I'm guessing the Smooth Hound is very much in the consumer camp - or maybe the prosumer camp at a push but is unlikely to find itself on bigger stages with lots of wireless due to the inability to tune specific frequencies.

Here's Rhino Edwards using his set along side Jim Kirkpatrick's at the Shepherds Bush Empire in January: Rhino's Revenge. They were guests of King King. Plenty of photos of Alan Nimmo using his Smooth Hound wireless here. There's many more professionals using the set all over the world on big stages and small.

 

 

[EBS_freak]

10 hours ago, SmoothHoundChris said:

Here's Rhino Edwards using his set along side Jim Kirkpatrick's at the Shepherds Bush Empire in January: Rhino's Revenge. They were guests of King King. Plenty of photos of Alan Nimmo using his Smooth Hound wireless here. There's many more professionals using the set all over the world on big stages and small.

 

 

Nice pics - but also not situations where a lot of wireless has been deployed.

No radio mics, no IEMs, no metal staging... so not really a testing environment for a 2.4ghz deployment.

[EBS_freak]

PS don't get me wrong, I think there is a place for this product - if the latency was sub 3ms, I'd buy one today at this price point - and I'd be super interested if there was a XLR mic version.

Edited April 19, 2018 by EBS_freak

[MoJoKe]

2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Nice pics - but also not situations where a lot of wireless has been deployed.

No radio mics, no IEMs, no metal staging... so not really a testing environment for a 2.4ghz deployment.

Yeah, I can only see two wireless there, as all mics and monitors are wired...  I had an interesting chat yesterday about the guy who does the RF planning and deployment for a large household name stadium touring artist, where his job is creating useable, interference free wireless for over 200 in-ear packs, mics and guitars...  usually different for every show, country and for every venue, because of the issues already mentioned...  that'd be a real test.

Tell their PA guys to turn down the transmission signal of his (multiple) stage network AP's there, and I think you'd be in danger of getting a slap!

Edited April 19, 2018 by MoJoKe

[fretmeister]

On the recent Metallica Rig Rundown there's a chat with the guy who does their wireless - some info about how difficult it is on 300ft stages with multiple guitars / lots of different mic points, wifi interference, 100,000 people in the crowd with phones etc etc.

 

It's fascinating stuff. 

[MoJoKe]

3 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

...It's fascinating stuff. 

No, its a ballache!!

[fretmeister]

All of a sudden I'm glad I only play pubs and sports halls!

[EBS_freak]

On 4/19/2018 at 10:23, MoJoKe said:

No, its a ballache!!

^This.

Trying to get over 10 systems working in tandem within a small slice of the spectrum is hard enough. When you are talking about the distribution of high channel count wireless, you are looking at far more than plug and play. Sennheiser and Shure have invested heavily in computerised systems to calculate the frequency and powers that are appropriate at the venues and enable the configuration to pushed out to the devices over ethernet to try and reduce the headache. There's incredible indepth analysis showing interference, dropped packets, induced latency... and a lot of these systems are encrypted so that the transmission streams cannot be intercepted, distribution can happen over Dante etc - that's the reason why I am saying Smooth Hound is not in the professional camp. It's not a slur on Smooth Hound - it's just a statement of the reality of the situation with regard to the other gear that is out there. Lets not forget that one channel of Smooth Hound is just over a hundred quid... one channel of ULXD say, is over a thousand pounds.

Oh ... and regard to co-ordination, it doesn't mean it's doesn't all change after soundcheck when the audience come in with all their phones! The radio guy's job is sometimes the easiest job on the crew... but sometimes, it's without doubt the most stressful. No radio, no show!

Edited April 22, 2018 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

Anyway, it's probably best that we get this thread back on track - if anybody wants to talk wireless in depth, I'm sure you could set up a thread in accessories and misc and we can continue conversation on such things there and let the Smooth Hound discussions resume.

[dand666]

I've played on a few massive stages, walkways and all, and SmoothHound was managing okay. Even with the massive Shure Antenna things all up around the room and a lot of wireless lapel mics e.t.c

 

The only problem I had then was the distance. But looking back to it, the unit was down on the ground under an electric kit. (no amp gig, all IEMS). And It would only drop at the end of a long walkway. So my own fault really.

 

So for the price SmoothHound is great, it works well and its dead simple to set-up!

[Al Krow]

Guys - there was a brief post about one of our BC'ers 3D printing a strap sleeve for the Smooth Hound and was going to make this available more widely.

Can't seem to locate the post / thread. Any of you recall this and did anything come of it?

[EBS_freak]

13 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Guys - there was a brief post about one of our BC'ers 3D printing a strap sleeve for the Smooth Hound and was going to make this available more widely.

Can't seem to locate the post / thread. Any of you recall this and did anything come of it?

@intime-nick?

[intime-nick]

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Guys - there was a brief post about one of our BC'ers 3D printing a strap sleeve for the Smooth Hound and was going to make this available more widely.

Can't seem to locate the post / thread. Any of you recall this and did anything come of it?

Yup, it was me !

I'm making a few whilst I sort something out with Chris @ Smoothound - if you'd like to send me a message, I can sort one out for you.

Cheers,

Nick 

[Al Krow]

Thanks both 'EBS' and Nick. I'm now sorted and my order has been placed with Nick - looks like such a useful piece of kit! 

In case anyone else is wondering what we're going on about or might be interested:

[T-Bay]

I have one, it is the final piece to make the system perfect for me.

[Linus27]

Can anyone give me any tips on improving interference. I've only had my Sound Hound for a few months but even when standing about 6 - 10ft away, the red interference bar can flick between 1 red light all the way to 4 red lights and its even cut out a few times when playing. I've tried it at three or four different venues/gigs now and it has happened at all of them. I even tried it in my house once and it was still not very good. I have tried different setting but it does not seem to make any difference. Last Sunday I was playing at an outdoor Garden Party, only standing about 10ft away and it cutout a few times and I even noticed once that all three light bars (1 red and 2 green) flickered and illuminated through their entire range which was very strange.  

I am using a passive Fender Jazz or Precision direct into a MarkBass rig with no pedals attached. Our two guitarists are using wireless systems and our singer is using a wireless mic. Even with the guitarists wireless system not on I noticed the same results.

Any advice or tips appreciated.

[EBS_freak]

What are the other wireless systems? Can you drop their transmission power?