Messin' with Marcus

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

I have a feeling I may have overthought this or perhaps I'm being too sensitive on the whole issue, but I would appreciate your comments.

I'm doing a show later on this year for which we are due to start rehearsals for next month. I have eleven songs to perform, some of which I am familiar with already, so time is not an issue. Other bassists are handling the rest of the show.

Of the eleven songs I'm playing (with various lead singers), there are a couple that I wouldn't normally give the time of day to, but it's for charity and I've knuckled down anyway, so they're pretty much sorted. Then we come to Never Too Much by Luther. The MP3 I have has been dropped by four steps and sounds just dreadful to my ears. Clearly no thought has been given to how it's going to sound with the band as a whole. It seems to me that consideration has been given for a singer who can't sing it in the original key and nothing else. It's not a particularly demanding bass line, but for me, it's absolutely ruined in the key they want it done.

I just know if I say anything it will be a case of "Nah, it'll be alright", but here do you draw the line?

I'm not against changing key to help singers get in range for some songs. I do it all the time in my main band, but I think there are some songs that should'nt be messed with and/or certainly not by this much. It's starting to eat away at me that no one even bothered to say "I know we've dropped it significantly, are you OK with it?" before it was supposedly set in stone.

[chris_b]

How can you say some key changes are OK and some aren't. IME the singer's limitations will always be worked around at the expense of the other musicians. That's the way of the world. Our job is to make it work.

I feel your pain, but I wouldn't quit just because of this. I'd think of it as a different song and work out a different bass line that approximated the record. But I'd have to do that anyway as I don't slap.

On the other hand, I am at an advantage because I play a 5 string bass, so I could drop down (to Eb I believe) without problem.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1435137822' post='2805760']
How can you say some key changes are OK and some aren't. IME the singer's limitations will always be worked around at the expense of the other musicians. That's the way of the world. Our job is to make it work.

I feel your pain, but I wouldn't quit just because of this. I'd think of it as a different song and work out a different bass line that approximated the record. But I'd have to do that anyway as I don't slap.

On the other hand, I am at an advantage because I play a 5 string bass, so I could drop down (to Eb I believe) without problem.
[/quote]
The fact that I would have to play it on a 5 is immaterial as I own and play a 5 regularly.

I am not and never will be a singers bitch. They're just another musician at the end of the day.

I'll accommodate a small shift in key, but not at the expense of the song as a whole.

[chardbass]

I hear you but perhaps there is some truth in the opening line of the OP.
Perhaps try and think of it less as a tune with an MM line in it and more a song as a whole.
You'll get the funk going on with your 5er and can still get the original vibe for the most part.
You're not being a singer's bitch. We're all serving the song regardless of key.
Hope you get to enjoy it either way.

[No lust in Jazz]

We have been playing around with a song and now for the sake of the vocals it needs to drop a whole tone. We're sticking with it as we have done a lot of work on the arrangement - but I agree it can sap the piss out of the whole process.

I take the view that I'll make the best of it as a bass part and endeavor to deliver it as professionally as I can.

I'm not a fan of the whole 'it i'll be alright' concept.

[alibabu]

Here is another version, still just as funky imo, no slapping and a different key (although not THAT different). But I assume the main reason for your concern about changing key was the slapping bit?
[url="http://open.spotify.com/track/23KyI5QURNl9LGA7LlDWYj"]Tracy Hamlin – Never Too Much[/url]

a.

[tauzero]

Get one of the other bassists who isn't feeling so precious about it to do it instead?

It's a song in a different key. No-one dies.

As an aside, we shifted "Midnight Hour" quite a long way for Mrs Zero, from E to B. I pitch-shifted the track in Audacity for practice purposes. It sounds like Pinky and Perky. Excellent.

Edited June 24, 2015 by tauzero

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

[quote name='alibabu' timestamp='1435140873' post='2805803']
Here is another version, still just as funky imo, no slapping and a different key (although not THAT different). But I assume the main reason for your concern about changing key was the slapping bit?
[url="http://open.spotify.com/track/23KyI5QURNl9LGA7LlDWYj"]Tracy Hamlin – Never Too Much[/url]

a.
[/quote]
Nope. Not concerned about the "slapping bit". The song prior to Never Too Much is the Graham Central Station version of Feel The Need.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1435140886' post='2805804']
Get one of the other bassists who isn't feeling so precious about it to do it instead?

It's a song in a different key. No-one dies.

As an aside, we shifted "Midnight Hour" quite a long way for Mrs Zero, from E to B. I pitch-shifted the track in Audacity for practice purposes. It sounds like Pinky and Perky. Excellent.
[/quote]
I'm not being "precious" about it, I just think it sounds sh*t.

Edited June 24, 2015 by hiram.k.hackenbacker

[lemmywinks]

Four whole steps is a lot, I agree. There is a reason songs are written in specific keys and deviating too much can really suck the life out of them, although I heard an extremely low version of I Want You Back a while ago and it worked extremely well, much better than I thought it would! Different but still very catchy and you could still dance to it (not me personally, I dance like an orangutan having a seizure).

Whether the audience will care or not is a different story.......

[alibabu]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1435141540' post='2805813']
Nope. Not concerned about the "slapping bit". The song prior to Never Too Much is the Graham Central Station version of Feel The Need.
[/quote]
I think you maybe misunderstood me. I was not suggesting you had a problem with slapping per se, but the combination of slapping and changing key. At least on the 5 string basses I have tried (and own), the sound is quite different when slapping the same note on the E-string and the B-string. I also think it is a bit strange to judge whether a key change would "work" or not, based on an mp3 that has been key shifted that much. Try it out with the band, and see if you can make it work together, altering voicings on the guitar and keys to match the new key will probably help a lot.


a.

[Chiliwailer]

Can't imagine you ever being anyone's bitch mate!

Sounds like you made your mind up, can you song swap with another bassist?

Too many ways to skin this cat, see if you can roll with your gut feeling.

[bassjim]

there are some songs that no matter how hard you try they sound SH** if you change the key. Its because in the original key the player goes for what sounds best using what notes are strongest.(you know this anyway!!) in said song I have dropped the E to a D to play this a tone down.That works. I too have tried it in other keys and cause apart from these two, I'm with you there; its doesnt work any other way unless the whole band change the approach.(and then this is only if the other band members are good enough musicians capable of doing so) Its loses its balls and identity if you want to stay true as poss to the original. its not just you that sounds rubbish as a result but the whole band. Its embarising and depressing when you get this. If all can agree : drop the tune or get another singer. No you're not being a diva. You can hold up your end of the deal and its not you causing the problem. If the singer is mature enough musically speaking they will happily look at something else?

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

[quote name='Chiliwailer' timestamp='1435143564' post='2805849']
Can't imagine you ever being anyone's bitch mate!

Sounds like you made your mind up, can you song swap with another bassist?

Too many ways to skin this cat, see if you can roll with your gut feeling.
[/quote]
No mate. Swapping isn't really an option. The songs are set in blocks. I'm playing the first two blocks of four, having a long break and then coming back for the last block of three songs, which is effectively the encore, with 10+ players and a show choir.

Thinking about it, the MP3 I've been given is a pitch shifted live version and there's a lot of crap going on in there that I could do without. This possibly adds to how bad it all sounds overall. I'll pitch shift the studio version and see how I get on with that.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

[quote name='bassjim' timestamp='1435145881' post='2805893']
there are some songs that no matter how hard you try they sound SH** if you change the key. Its because in the original key the player goes for what sounds best using what notes are strongest.(you know this anyway!!) in said song I have dropped the E to a D to play this a tone down.That works. I too have tried it in other keys and cause apart from these two, I'm with you there; its doesnt work any other way unless the whole band change the approach.(and then this is only if the other band members are good enough musicians capable of doing so) Its loses its balls and identity if you want to stay true as poss to the original. its not just you that sounds rubbish as a result but the whole band. Its embarising and depressing when you get this. If all can agree : drop the tune or get another singer. No you're not being a diva. You can hold up your end of the deal and its not you causing the problem. If the singer is mature enough musically speaking they will happily look at something else?
[/quote]
+1. It's hard not to come across as an awkward bugger, but I do find this sort of situation a compete buzz kill.
Keyboard players for example are notorious for not "getting it" as they just can just flick a switch and be done with it.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

[quote name='alibabu' timestamp='1435142541' post='2805832']

I think you maybe misunderstood me. I was not suggesting you had a problem with slapping per se, but the combination of slapping and changing key. At least on the 5 string basses I have tried (and own), the sound is quite different when slapping the same note on the E-string and the B-string. I also think it is a bit strange to judge whether a key change would "work" or not, based on an mp3 that has been key shifted that much. Try it out with the band, and see if you can make it work together, altering voicings on the guitar and keys to match the new key will probably help a lot.


a.
[/quote]
Ah, yes I did. There might be a bit of that in it, but it's not my real issue.

[Chiliwailer]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1435146031' post='2805895']

No mate. Swapping isn't really an option. The songs are set in blocks. I'm playing the first two blocks of four, having a long break and then coming back for the last block of three songs, which is effectively the encore, with 10+ players and a show choir.

Thinking about it, the MP3 I've been given is a pitch shifted live version and there's a lot of crap going on in there that I could do without. This possibly adds to how bad it all sounds overall. I'll pitch shift the studio version and see how I get on with that.
[/quote]

Fingers crossed it sounds a tad better then. From my PoV if it's a one off show I'd raise the concern and if I get nowhere then suck it up and hopefully, very smugly, say 'told you so...'

Rest of the night sounds fun though.