Jazz on electric bass... Saint or Sinner?

[mtroun]

There's no rule as to what instrument is better for jazz per se, it's just that the majority of amateur to semi pro musicians who play jazz are aiming for a 'classic' jazz sound so will invariably prefer double bass, small drum sizes and acoustic piano. Like most jazz double bass players I started out on electric bass and eventually made the switch because jazz became my favourite thing.

I'm not saying you can't make it work, but it's a bit of a compromise playing electric bass in small group jazz (I actually think electric bass often works well in big bands, particularly more contemporary ones) because the sound of the instrument doesn't interact with the ride cymbal at the same frequency and that's such an integral relationship in straight ahead jazz. The bloom of the longer strings combined with the 'thwack' of the string being pulled back is really hard to emulate on an electric bass (I remember someone telling me that a Rob Allen sounded just like a double bass, they can't have heard much double bass!) and that's because the technique for playing the two is fundamentally quite different.

Conversely, I don't like playing fiddly semiquaver stuff on double bass in a pastiche of electric bass playing, because the longer scale makes the attack less prominent, particularly as I'm a gut string guy on double bass.

Interesting the number of posts taking a shot at the well known jazz snobbery, sometimes I know what people are going on about, there's a breed of jazz player (normally quite good but not quite world class) who spends the majority of their time pointing out the shortcomings of other musicians. But I do find that there's an immense amount of unwarranted inverse snobbery towards jazz musicians from certain sectors of the community.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1435260411' post='2807140']
If you're using flats, all will be well.
[/quote]

Though metal strings might be a bit modern for some. Best stick to gut.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='bassace' timestamp='1435264032' post='2807181']
There are still a few jazz double bass fakers out there because the relative softness of the bass - especially with muddy amplification - means that their notes can stay hidden.
[/quote]

I'm counting on this, as I've somehow ended up with a couple of jazz gigs next month and I don't really consider myself a jazz musician. Still, it's a repeat booking so perhaps we weren't quite that bad!

[RhysP]

[quote name='Modman' timestamp='1435257929' post='2807103']
Good evening one and all,


I wan to start playing Jazz standards properly, whether that be in a band or at a Jam night etc but is it a cardinal sin to play an electric bass? Put it another way... Am i going to be sneered and spat at by the Jazzer elites?
[/quote]

I wouldn't worry about it, if you're playing jazz there won't be anyone watching anyway....

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

Beware of the beard twitchers in the audience

[alyctes]

Ashbory...

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Modman' timestamp='1435257929' post='2807103']
Good evening one and all,


I wan to start playing Jazz standards properly, whether that be in a band or at a Jam night etc but is it a cardinal sin to play an electric bass? Put it another way... Am i going to be sneered and spat at by the Jazzer elites?
[/quote]

Electric bass has been around in jazz since the early 50s - a lot of the opposition (from jazz officianados and other musicians) evaporated in the 70s and quite honestly there have been countless examples of jazz standards played on electric bass. I stayed in a hotel quite recently where they had someone performing jazz standards on piano in the lounge - accompanied by a bass player playing fretless electric. There was no sneering and no complaints. I think he was using roundwounds judging by the sound. I also saw the Buddy Rich orchestra in the early 70s - with electric bass (and excellent as well).

There will always be die hards who have a different view (folk is another genre example) but a lot of what is reported these days is probably an exaggeration - back in the 50s/60s it was certainly true. But there's plenty of musical snobbery around in rock jam sessions to rival anything I've seen in the more esoteric genres.

There's a bit of a tendency for people to confuse the current popularity for slavish attempts to mimic eras of historic music (especially the 60s) with a musician simply wanting to play particular songs etc. concentrate on learning the songs - that in itself is hard enough with jazz standards in my view.

A presumption that the only way you can play particular songs and music is, for instance, on a specific make of instrument with a particular type of strings is focussing on equipment rather than musicianship - musically speaking its v narrow minded. Fine if it's a stage show depicting a specific band or as a tribute - otherwise not!! Walking bass lines are better on a double bass?? Good grief that's absolute nonsense in my view - the only thing better from the players point of view is you can be quite inaccurate on a double bass without being found out - unlike on a fretless or fretted electric!!

Now if you're wanting to join an orchestra or band playing this music then you may find openings for electric bass more limited. My personal view is that jazz sounds better on electric - mainly because you can hear the notes more clearly. I suspect classic Miles Davis (eg Kind of Blue) has been played significantly more on electric bass than on upright, as recorded originally.

Edited June 27, 2015 by drTStingray

[lowdown]

For small ensemble Jazz (trios etc), or the older style Big Bands,
My tendency is for UB (I like the dynamics/note decay better).
Heavy Big Band Jazz/Latin/Groove styles, I like the attack and punch of the EB better.

These days, in Jazz people don't sneer and spit,
Although they might do if you don't know the changes and forms....lol..
I still see 'fakers' trying it on, hiding behind muddy indistinguishable sounds,
thinking they are getting away with it.

If you are turning up at Jazz blows, or want to get into regular Jazz gigs,
spend some time learning a lot of the popular tunes used (great ear practise anyway),
rather than worrying about UB vs EB warriors.
It will set you up for moving onto more adventurous projects.

[discreet]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1435395389' post='2808329']
...the only thing better from the players point of view is you can be quite inaccurate on a double bass without being found out - unlike on a fretless or fretted electric!!.
[/quote]

Just as I thought - UBs are for charlatans and chancers!! I categorise UB players with jugglers, unicyclists and the homeless.

[Mykesbass]

If the rest of the band is clarinet, trombone, tenor banjo and upright piano you may want to consider taking along a tuba!

On a slightly more serious note, as someone who likes listening to jazz, I'd go against what a lot of people have been saying. Don't try to emulate double bass on electric, just find the sounds and lines that you are happy with, otherwise you're not going to enjoy it as you'll be chasing an impossible compromise.

[Bilbo]

Of course you can play Jazz on electric bass. You can play Jazz on any instrument. The question is, firstly, what is your definition of ‘Jazz’ and, secondly, whether or not the sound of the instrument sits well with the rest of the ensemble. Steve Swallow is everyone’s favourite electric player because his sound and time sits nicely in the mix and his ideas are sufficiently organic to satisfy the expectations of the rest of the band. The problem with electric bass in Jazz is not the electricity in the bass, it is the idiomatic aesthetic of the preferred double bass alongside the player’s knowledge of the requirements of the genre. Most standards gigs are ‘of a type’ and the ensemble is trying to create a vibe that is idiomatically consistent with the expectations of the audience.

A lot of electric bass players in Jazz are rock/funk/fusion players who have crossed over into playing standards because that is the nature of most of the Jazz gigs that are available. We all want to play in Weather Report or Snarky Puppy but this is not really what most people think of as Jazz and is not what Jazz musicians are usually talking about when they are looking at the idiom. As a result of their stylistic proclivities, electric players ‘hear’ Jazz differently and ‘play’ Jazz differently to double bassists. They are generally busier and more ‘guitaristic’ than double bassists. Most performances of standards recorded using electric bass are fundamentally unsatisfying to Jazz fans not because the bass is electric but because the sound is relatively thin. There is a strong relationship between the tone of an instrument and the ‘swing’ (in all it’s various forms) generated. Listen to Paul Chambers ‘doom, doom, doom’ and it is different to Jimmy Garrison’s more ‘compressed’ ‘dum, dum, dum’. Different feelings created but neither are more right or wrong that the other (although most people would prefer the swing generated by Chambers to that of Garrison). A lot of walking electric bass, on the other hand, is audibly more of a ‘ping, ping, ping’ and does not have the same effect at all. (interestingly, the Buddy Rich stuff mentioned about is generally of marginal interest to Jazz aficionados – it is all show and no substance. Same with Maynard Ferguson etc). In bass terms, Swallow is one exception because, to my ears, his tone relates to that of the electric bass in the same way a nylon strung guitar relates to a steel strung one; it’s warmer and thicker so sits in the mix more organically. His is not the only solution, however. Anthony Jackson manages to achieve an incredible level of swing through the use of extended strings and his own take on tone. Jaco, interestingly, found a solution occasionally but was massively inconsistent. His sound on the Word of Mouth record works very well but his ‘standards’ work with Birelli Lagrene and Jon Davis is shockingly bad. Another electric bass in Jazz ‘failure’ for me is Laurence Cottle. Great player with massive fusion chops but his sound fails to fulfil the required role in a ‘standard’ Jazz setting.

The point I am making is that there is absolutely a place for electric bass in Jazz but the player needs to find his space in the mix, needs to know the requirements of the idiom and needs to recognise the fact that they will almost never get called for ‘Jazz’ gigs unless there are no double bass players available or unless the people calling him have no more idea of the idiomatic requirements that s/he does (there are plenty of musicians out there playing Jazz who have no concept of the requirements of the idiom and who are happy (in their ignorance) to approximate. An electric bass played alongside a drummer or guitarist/ who themselves. only have a superficial understanding of Jazz is certainly not going to make things worse. Nor is it going to make things better. But a great Jazz ensemble which has its collective concept in a conventional Jazz aesthetic will always sound better with a double bass. Which is why the upright player gets the call before the electric player. It is not prejudice, it is preference borne of knowledge and experience.

[Telebass]

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say use the electric. Having tried upright briefly earlier this year, I can say that the sound was nice, but just about everything else about the instrument is a pain.
The sound is not remotely nice enough that the ease of an electric can be cast aside, IMHO. Monk Montgomery, who loved his upright, never looked back, for the simple reason that he could do the things he wanted to on the Fender. Steve Swallow's changeover was equally sudden and total. Electric for me, and solid electric at that - all else now disposed of!

[Bilbo]

No disagreement with anyone who wants to do it on electric. Just expect to be everyone's last call guy.

[petebassist]

I play upright bass, but I just bought this great book, Walking Jazz Lines for Bass, by Jay Hungerford, which is all done on electric bass, so I'm learning a lot about jazz standards. If it's good enough for Jay... You can never please everybody, no matter what you do.

Edited June 30, 2015 by petebassist

[ezbass]

Groove, swing and tone are what matter surely (to real musos anyway). Electric, fretted and with a pick; a recipe for jazz standard disaster? Not so much -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPhJn6pz6Fg

[bassace]

I don't usually do jazz jams - the two most dreaded words in the language - but I played in the house rhythm section of a well-organised one last Sunday. As I walked in I heard someone say 'Oh good, a double bass'. So, go figure.

[ezbass]

[quote name='bassace' timestamp='1435672711' post='2811241']As I walked in I heard someone say 'Oh good, a double bass'. So, go figure.
[/quote]They probably wouldn't say that if I was playing it

Bassace's post sums it up really, the world is full of music 'fans' who listen with their eyes and not their ears.

[Telebass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1435659131' post='2810993']
No disagreement with anyone who wants to do it on electric. Just expect to be everyone's last call guy.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, the truth...

[hubrad]

I remember walking in to Wakefield Jazz a few years back, to see a singer I'd not heard of but about whom (naturally) the club flyer had raved. Liane Carroll
I had to suppress a pang of disappointment at seeing an electric bass - a fretted one, at that - propped up at the back of the stage, but well, Wakefield Jazz always get decent people on..
Turned out to be Roger Carey, husband of said Liane Carroll, and it turned out to be one of the best gigs I'd been to in years.
Take the bass you're comfortable with, and you'll play as well as you can.

This vid is simply joyous! [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH4x6ijy4fQ"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH4x6ijy4fQ[/url]

[Bilbo]

No-one thinks it can't be done, it's just that a lot of people think that it can't be done as well. Hence, given a free choice, most people book double

[JamesBass]

Went to a jazz jam tonight, the house bass player played an electric fretted bass for this and played a lot of the standards. His reasons for using an electric; space, ease of transport, and the cutting tone of a PJ combination for solos and chords, also the BL asks for electric players only for this jam night. When I spoke to him, his opinion of DB and EB is - They both have their place, but the versatility of an EB, and the fact it takes up less space is a huge positive, he's also of the opinion that you can find the standard of player easier, if you open it up to both EB and DB.

[bassace]

I find that very depressing and, I hope, not typical of the jazz scene. I suppose people have to get into jazz somehow but I'm not a great fan of jams anyway.

[Thunderbird]

I think Jazz should be illegal on any instrument in fact I think it should be banned lol .......runs for cover

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1435659131' post='2810993']
No disagreement with anyone who wants to do it on electric. Just expect to be everyone's last call guy.
[/quote]

Cottle seems to do alright without playing upright...

But then again, with skills like his, people can turn a blind eye

[mtroun]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1435569682' post='2810004']
Listen to Paul Chambers ‘doom, doom, doom’ and it is different to Jimmy Garrison’s more ‘compressed’ ‘dum, dum, dum’. Different feelings created but neither are more right or wrong that the other (although most people would prefer the swing generated by Chambers to that of Garrison).
[/quote]
Sacre bleu!
Most people eh... I love them both but that's a big statement to make!

Agree with the rest of your post though, Bilbo. It's quite hard to explain that while the electric bass isn't disapproved of in jazz per se, it's something of a speciality instrument and generally you can expect jazz groups with electric bass to be breaking away from the mainstream of the music, i.e. acoustic groups with a focus on swing feel. Electric bass and big drum kits just live in a different sound world, not better or worse, just different, and drastically change the sound of the ensemble.

Whether it's a good or bad thing to be mainstream is immaterial in this discussion! If you turn up to a jazz gig with the electric (I have from time to time) either you've been booked because the group wants the specific effect of electric bass, or you're really really really good!