Bilbo Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1435753012' post='2812089'] Cottle seems to do alright without playing upright... But then again, with skills like his, people can turn a blind eye [/quote] Cottle is a great bass player but he is not a first call Jazz guy. He is a guy with sufficient 'kudos' attached to his reputation that some people book him as a name for their albums etc and, if there is a 'fusion' element to it, he is number one. But the hardcore Jazz cats would only call him as a last resort. The discussions on who to call need to remember that there is a marked difference between who Fred call for his gig at the Dog and Duck (a lcoal guy he knows and can afford) and who Tony Kofi calls for his gigs at the London Jazz Festival (a 'celebrity' double bass player like Dave Green, Arnie Somogyi, Andy Cleyndert, Mick Hutton, Larry Bartley, Gary Crosby etc. If a Jazz cat is playing Jazz at a Jazz event, especially if it is a 'standards' band, it's 99% double bass. If a Jazz cat is moving towards some aspect of a fusion vibe, electric is a possibility and Cottle, Mike Mondesir, Dudley Phillips, Kevin Glasgow etc may get a call. Yes some of this depends on your definitons of Jazz but consensus suggests that the 'Jazz' professionals tend to distinguish acoustic Jazz and electric/fusion styles quite consciously. A lot of 'local' Jazz and Jazz performed at functions is a bit sad, if we are honest, and using it as a means of defining how an idiom is presented is problematic. Personally, I think there is nothing sadder than an electric bass player trying to 'approximate' a double bass. I should know; I did it for 25 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Marcus manages pretty well with the electric ! I love both P.C. and Garrison ,but having just listened to Garrisons solo on Impressions i'm favoring him at present is it the strings that give him the more compressed sound or technique ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think it's a bit of both but Garrison never had PC's chops. He had his thing, absolutely, but PC had the smoother technique and stronger bop chops. Garrison was, for me, the deeper of the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb13.bass Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Just don't play Jazz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1437168586' post='2824260'] I think it's a bit of both but Garrison never had PC's chops. He had his thing, absolutely, but PC had the smoother technique and stronger bop chops. Garrison was, for me, the deeper of the two. [/quote]Sounds that way to me too .and although p.c,'s lines transpose over to electric well ,for me Garrison's stuff with Coltrane works better...although it all sounds better on upright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 When I first discovered jazz I thought it was an incredibly broad church ranging from the Dixie type 20s stuff all the way to the free improv of Peter Brotzmann and Derek Bailey... That it was about both innovation, huge skill [I]and[/I] tradition. How wrong could I be! It seems that jazz is only about playing other people's music (or variations of) using the legally-allowed instrumentation. If it doesn't fit into those exact parameters it's no longer "real" jazz, it's some sort of bastardisation, like it's been diluted by rock or funk and become (spits) [I]fusion[/I]. It's as if all the folks who wrote the standards did so in isolation, without having heard any of the melodies or other musical genres of the time. And here's some Prime Time: [MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQmOv3TCUsM[/MEDIA] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I agree to an extent but i dont think the great innovators were ever encumbered by the 'purest's' conservatism to jazz.. love the Ornette ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Indeed -you don't innovate by being conservative (with a small c!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 With respect, the innovative use of electric bass in Jazz is not in question. Of course it is entirely legitimate. That is very different to a little Suffolk trio rolling up at a restaurant gig in Felixstowe to play Fly Me To The Moon. Prime Time tunes would get you kicked out in a second 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Fair enough! Though Prime Time is much closer to the spirit of jazz, than a little Suffolk Trio playing "Fly Me To The Moon"! There does see to be an attitude among some jazzers that electricity has no place in jazz, that somehow, introducing a pick-up makes it something else entirely. I was speaking to a chap just the other day who plays sax in a jazz standards trio; he'd heard I'd once played in a jazz band. When he discovered that not only were members of Lol Coxhill's collective involved (that's not jazz, it's just a noise!), but that I played electric bass he appeared visibly hurt, like he'd been betrayed! It's similar to the attitude among some classical music fans that the music must be played exactly as it's written - and they sit on the front row and take along a score to make sure that there's absolutely no deviation. This attitude continues with the belief that somehow electric instruments play themselves, or are at least easier to play, and that no [I]serious[/I] musician would play one - cries of "Judas" spring to mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Nothing wrong with "Fly Me To The Moon", in the right (and left) hands of course...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8P-aw-Qu84 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 [quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1437376930' post='2825304'] Nothing wrong with "Fly Me To The Moon", in the right (and left) hands of course...... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8P-aw-Qu84[/media] [/quote] Nothing you couldn't cure with a spade across the back of the head. The 'offended' saxophone player discussed above may be in the wrong in a debate on aesthetics but, if it's his gig he is booking, it is a matter for him. There are thousands of examples of electric bass playing Jazz standards. Most of them suck but the few superb examples don't provide insufficient leverage with which to argue that the electric is anything but a last resort for most players. I was thinking about this on the weekend. I did a pop gig with a five piece (three vocals, guitar, bass, drums, keyboards and trumpet - all the vocalists played) and it was a sweet gig in terms of the lovely people involved but, fundamentally, it sucked because the production values were all over the place and the sounds across the board were 'nearly but not quite'. It was a scratch band essentially and it was 'good enough' for the occasion but it was all over the place for all sorts of reasons. A classic Jazz quartet of piano, double bass, drums and one horn will almost always sound 'authentic'. Take out the double bass and replace it with electric and, in most cases, it immediately starts to sound flaky. A lot of (most?) Jazz is played by scratch bands so the default position is piano, double bass, drums and hornn (of course, I am generalising). Electric piano is almost always a given - so few venues have pianos nowadays - but electric bass will mostly be a last resort. Even electric guitar has to be idiomatically appropriate (Kenny Burrell not Frank Gambale!!). It is interesting to note that, as soon as I got a double bass, my electric bass Jazz calls stopped immediately, even thought I was sh*t (I used to ask and was always told 'double bass' - I stopped asking). Unless someone can go back and get Miles to re-record Cookin', Relaxin', Steamin' and Workin' with electric bass, I suspect the double bass will remain the instrument of choice for most Jazz standards ensembles. In 99% of cases, it just sits better in the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Aye - most folks idea of jazz is your double bass/drums/sax/perhaps piano combo playing either something light'n'cheesey in the background, or something horrifically tuneless and widdley (nice!) In the first case, double bass is a given. In the case of the second, it matters not a jot. Each to their own, but being a bit weird I much prefer the latter. [MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQDDIwcS1z4[/MEDIA] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I think there are two discussions happening here. The first one is "to people who don't listen to jazz or don't like it very much, does it matter if the bass is electric or upright?" and I think the answer there is a resounding No. But if your definition of 'jazz' is the post-bebop form of music that usually swings and features mainly acoustic instruments, I'd agree with Bilbo that all other things being equal, a double bass's sound is better suited. Of course, there are lots of other forms of music, and jazz, where this doesn't apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Many of the comments in this thread about 'authentic jazz' remind me of the days of old in folk music when Dylan went electric and caused a near riot at a concert in Manchester - similar apeplexy when Fairport Convention used electric instruments and these days seen as a bunch of narrow minded people looking and sounding daft. I personally prefer Jazz on electric bass and I'm sure lots of people do. I also like upright (but please not in Miles Davis later music). What are these 'calls' which people keep saying electric players won't get? Firstly probably id wager a majority of people posting here are not professional musicians looking for a jazz session call (are there that many jazz sessions)? And secondly what is wrong with learning a range of music on your instrument - be it authentic or not? The idea is to grow musically not fit to some preconceived idea someone else has. I've learned quite a lot of music I'd never remotely expect to play in a group or even want to. But I can say it has helped me technically and theory wise to be a better player in what I do play. These people with the 'it's not a 62 precision with la bella flats through a Kustom so it's not authentic Jamerson' make me smile - they never notice it ain't Jamerson playing either. All has little relevance IMO - a bit like 'disgusted from Tunbridge Wells' in the Times letters page. They miss the point entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 They don't miss the point at all. Electric bass playing Jazz is perfectly acceptable, especially if the player is Steve Swallow. Jazz is a very broad church and can accommodate anything if it is used with integrity. In the real world, double bass playing Jazz is the normal default for a 'standards' gig, to the point where MDs will book a bad double bass player before they book a decent electric player! It is not a question of whether the bass player believes it to be authentic or acceptable, it is whether the MD believes it. My argument is simply that mostly that is exactly what they think. PS I have a Jazz gig on Saturday and I am going to do it on electric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1437491489' post='2826484'] PS I have a Jazz gig on Saturday and [b]I am going to do it on electric[/b] [/quote] Excellent! I hope you're also taking a pedalboard with a full array of distortion, wah and envelope follower pedals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1437491489' post='2826484'] In the real world, double bass playing Jazz is the normal default for a 'standards' gig, to the point where MDs will book a bad double bass player before they book a decent electric player! It is not a question of whether the bass player believes it to be authentic or acceptable, it is whether the MD believes it. My argument is simply that mostly that is exactly what they think. [/quote] Yes I don't doubt this. Thankfully I don't have to deal with such people!! I had particularly noticed Michael Buble's band had moved more to double bass - interesting and no doubt because of the standards they do - but I prefer it personally with electric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 [quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1437494223' post='2826529'] Excellent! I hope you're also taking a pedalboard with a full array of distortion, wah and envelope follower pedals! [/quote] 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I once went to our local folk open mic night with a Marshall bass amp plus 4x12 cab, a Qtron and valve distortion pedals. It was unfortunate that I didn't realise that a)it was an open mic night (it was advertised as a "jam night"), and it was run by a local "I saw a prettye Mayde" type dyed-in-the-wool folk chap. I got very dirty looks as I wheeled the stack in, and was told there was nowhere to plug in... I knew I should have taken a generator as well!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I'm willing to bet a number of our six stringed friends (guitarists) have made similar mistakes - no doubt the locals all sang with one finger in one ear - hmmm perhaps I'm stereotyping too much here!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepbass5 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) A lot of truth spoken here even though it hurts. People - punters who like to like jazz see the DB as the pin up girl for everything jazz. they can relax to the bar as soon as they have clocked the DB laying in wait. My reading ability gets me jazz gigs, but i know they would prefer an upright. As was said above most of the time a DB can't be heard and that's how the blowers like it, seen and not heard occasionally felt. Keep it low and play D if lost, I was once told to be the DB players fall back position until they recognize the head or chorus. Edited July 21, 2015 by deepbass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Miles Davis - 'Nobody knows what the bass does but they miss it if it isn't there'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1437511931' post='2826740'] Miles Davis - 'Nobody knows what the bass does but they miss it if it isn't there'. [/quote] Neat - but is that quote pre 1969? You certainly can't say that of Marcus Miler's playing with Miles. I suspect even Paul Chambers would have dabbled with, if not more, electric bass had he lived long enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Even Ron Carter played electric for about a fortnight in the 1960s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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