Current Class A/B amps?

[Jenny_Innie]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1435327093' post='2807761']

It isn't - it's just having an amp that can do the amount of power you need for a full note length. With some of the optimistically specced Class D amps you might need a '900W' amp whilst a Class AB that can do its 300W continuously might have similar heft and loudness. But it isn't the Class D or Class AB thing that makes the difference, it's the power supply. The iAmp 800 was Class D with a traditional power supply. The Markbass LM2 was Class AB with an SMPS.
[/quote]

Haha. This is a hint that Alex's proposed new bass amp might NOT be Class D.

[Dood]

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1435433298' post='2808804']
Haha. This is a hint that Alex's proposed new bass amp might NOT be Class D.
[/quote]

Or, the modules he could use are the latest breed of D Class amplifiers with meaty power supplies. Interestingly I've been looking at the same modules for my own project that has been yet to start. I can't reveal anything just in case I don't have time..

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1435327093' post='2807761']
It isn't - it's just having an amp that can do the amount of power you need for a full note length. With some of the optimistically specced Class D amps you might need a '900W' amp whilst a Class AB that can do its 300W continuously might have similar heft and loudness. But it isn't the Class D or Class AB thing that makes the difference, it's the power supply. The iAmp 800 was Class D with a traditional power supply. The Markbass LM2 was Class AB with an SMPS.
[/quote] was wondering, what does that mean when you get to matching a amp to a cab? The trend seems to be for a couple of 1x12 and then people put a lot of power into them ... and suddenly 800w amps is the new "standard" .... and a EBS HD350 or my Walkabout doesn't put anywhere near 800w out.... what does that mean when looking at cabs? I've always presumed that with a lower power A/B amp you would end up trading low end for sensitivity. ....

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1435427503' post='2808730']
Not all bass amp makers doing uber-lightweight small heads use the same ICE modules either though (although many do), and even among the ones who do, IME they don't all sound the same. So my take is that implementation is everything, same as it ever was. I didn't really like very many old school amps back when they were contemporary, don't really like too many new ones either. Yet I sound just like me through just about anything. Doesn't keep me from still trying to improve the sound reinforcement aspect though -- maybe I'll get it right in the next forty years!
[/quote]

I was under the impression most of the amps we're discussing here use a similar variant of the B&O module.

They may not all sound the same, by they (i.e. the ones I've tried) seem to have a common characteristic that I don't get on with.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1435470758' post='2808998']
I was under the impression most of the amps we're discussing here use a similar variant of the B&O module.
[/quote]

Not really, at least in the case of Markbass, Acoustic Image, Ampeg, Carvin, Peavey, T.C., Ibanez, Vivid, Hevos, Jule Amps (non-Demeter versions), Bergantino, and the earlier Euphonic Audio, Aguilar, and Tec Amp Class D amps. But in any case, perhaps you'll get on better with the newer ICE modules that were designed more specifically for bass instrument applications -- I know I do. I also like the older ICE ASP series modules as used in the Bergantino IP powered cabs a lot, but AFAIK nobody was using those in commercial bass heads until very recently.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Passinwind

[wateroftyne]

Hmm.. I was an early Acoustic Image adopter (for the UK at least) and I recall that having the same lack of backbone that I've experienced with the other heads I've used. The TC was - IMO - dreadful (and I'm sure that uses a B&O derivative?). Markbass I've never got on with, and the only Aguilar head I've used was the AG500 which I liked immediately. but then again it has a lump'o'iron power supply even though it's class D.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1435472945' post='2809009']
Hmm.. I was an early Acoustic Image adopter (for the UK at least) and I recall that having the same lack of backbone that I've experienced with the other heads I've used. The TC was - IMO - dreadful (and I'm sure that uses a B&O derivative?). Markbass I've never got on with, and the only Aguilar head I've used was the AG500 which I liked immediately. but then again it has a lump'o'iron power supply even though it's class D.
[/quote]

Thing that gets me is that my Walkabout goes wrong and I've got the service documents and could probably repair it myself, or pay someone to do it. Couldn't do that with a RH450 could you?

My old tecamp puma 1000 used a powersoft digimod module. Mind you it's odd that a £1000 bass amp is essentially their preamp stuck in front of the module and and DI the connectors you need... all retailing then for £1000. A pa amp with the same module inside costs £200 new... that's a £800 preamp?? anyway...

[Passinwind]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1435472945' post='2809009']
. The TC was - IMO - dreadful (and I'm sure that uses a B&O derivative?).[/quote]

Derivative, yes, but AFAIK not an actual ICE module. Unfortunately a lot of the online tech info on those amps disappeared after the power management/ratings debacle. Not my cuppa at all in any case.

[JTUK]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1435472945' post='2809009']
Hmm.. I was an early Acoustic Image adopter (for the UK at least) and I recall that having the same lack of backbone that I've experienced with the other heads I've used. The TC was - IMO - dreadful (and I'm sure that uses a B&O derivative?). Markbass I've never got on with, and the only Aguilar head I've used was the AG500 which I liked immediately. but then again it has a lump'o'iron power supply even though it's class D.
[/quote]

This is the reason I keep a big block and wheel it out when I can..or the gig requires it.
I have a TH and TKS rig which sounds great but I've not gigged it yet....
For some stange reason, A TF550-B handles most gigs power-wise but I suspect a TH may not
and this was my thinking with Markbass rigs when I demo'd a few.
It was definitely a case of using it as it was light rather than because it was the sound I wanted.
Defo somethging lacking was my over riding thought.
I've done ok with a TC head but not gigged one. I'd guess that would come up short as well
as far as i am concerned so not even tempted to take it out beyond a demo.

Over this last year, the only two rigs I've played through and would get excited about playing thru have been
Aguilar DB and Eden WT with DB and XLT cabs respectively. I own one of them so didn't buy the other.

[chris_b]

My experience of owning TC amps was far from dreadful and last year I sat in a room with Nathan East, while he played with the best tone I've heard in a long time from an RH750 and a TC RS212 cab.

So far, since 2007, I've played through an Ampeg SVT3 PRO, Markbass LM2 and F1, TC Staccato and RH750, Thunderfunk 550 and 750, Genz STL 9.2 and Aguilar TH500. I could get a great sound out of all of them, except the F1, and the band liked the F1. I have good basses and good cabs and maybe my technique is more forgiving but IME if you can't get a good sound out of an amp then you're doing something wrong.

I've played and heard amps and cabs I didn't like but I'd always say that was down to my preferences and not a problem with the gear.

[Bobthedog]

Not trying to derail this thread entirely but a local festival last night had the bass on a Stingray 5H with a TC Blacksmith cab and 2 x RS410s playing classic rock from Motorhead, Black Sabath, Van Halen to Pink Floyd and he more than cut through, irrespective of his power supply. I was pleasantly surprised by his choice of bass considering the music but never got the chance to talk strings and settings. The tone was more than okay.

Surely speaker sensitivity comes into play too?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Bobthedog' timestamp='1435491281' post='2809256']
Not trying to derail this thread entirely but a local festival last night had the bass on a Stingray 5H with a TC Blacksmith cab and 2 x RS410s playing classic rock from Motorhead, Black Sabath, Van Halen to Pink Floyd and he more than cut through, irrespective of his power supply. I was pleasantly surprised by his choice of bass considering the music but never got the chance to talk strings and settings. The tone was more than okay.

Surely speaker sensitivity comes into play too?
[/quote] Does a local festival not put the bass through the PA?

[fretmeister]

What are the Mesa Carbine heads like?

[Bobthedog]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1435509644' post='2809512']
Does a local festival not put the bass through the PA?
[/quote]

That is a very fair point and it did, I had not though it through. I withdraw my comment. The stack was on too though, honest.

[PauBass]

I'm beginning to agree with all of you that say that Class D amps lack something. I hadn't noticed much with my function/wedding band but since we are back with our loud rock band I do have noticed.
As much as I like all the Class D amps I have tried, and the one I have at the moment , more an more I'm having the feeling that, specially in our loud rock band, my bass sounds thinner. Yes, there's plenty of volume but I'm finding there's a lack of heft, the note weight is not there and this shows clearly on the band mix, I have lost my place a bit no matter how loud I turn up.
We always record rehearsals when we are writing new songs, the difference from when I was using my DB750 to the recordings with Class D amps, confirm it for me, there's something missing, and I'm not talking volume.

Edited June 30, 2015 by PauBass

[ShergoldSnickers]

Heard at a hi-fi demo many moons ago...

"It's no good having your garden hose fed by a bloke with a pipette. What you want is that hose fitted to a tap on the Hoover Dam."

They sold Naim amplification.

[Muzz]

Aaaaand I'm here with the other side of the coin: rehearsed for the first time with a new full-on Rock band on Sunday night (lead guitarist with Engl Powerball and 4x12, anyone? ), took the Streamliner and two BF cabs, and it absolutely floored everyone. 'Heft' and 'clout' all over the place...

The function band is a more technical affair - thro the PA, in-ears, all sorts of work goes into the band sound, but this was just two guitars, me and a big drummer. Said this before, but the Streamliner has stayed while lots of other stuff has come and gone (including non-Class-D Mesa, Ashdown, etc) - I always overlap amps so I can live with the newcomer for a while to see if it's a goer, and the Streamliner keeps on winning for me...

I think the combination of amp and cab can have a bigger influence on overall sound than any specific element of that combination - it's analogous to something sounding good solo and poor with the band: some combinations of amps and cabs can sound great at low volumes, or when soloed, but don't bring it in a band situation...

Edited June 30, 2015 by Muzz

[chris_b]

These days I'm playing through one of the best sounding rigs I've owned. I'm running an Aguilar TH500 through a Berg CN212. But hold on. . . that's the worst of all worlds according to some people. So how come is it a universally acclaimed pairing for volume and tone?

I wonder how that can be if D class amps and neo cabs are as bad a some say.

The OP was asking for info. I guess he's got his answer. Ultimately he has to make up his own mind based on what [i]he[/i] hears.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1435663940' post='2811072']
These days I'm playing through one of the best sounding rigs I've owned. I'm running an Aguilar TH500 through a Berg CN212. But hold on. . . that's the worst of all worlds according to some people. So how come is it a universally acclaimed pairing for volume and tone?

I wonder how that can be if D class amps and neo cabs are as bad a some say.

The OP was asking for info. I guess he's got his answer. Ultimately he has to make up his own mind based on what [i]he[/i] hears.
[/quote]

Yep, it's a polarising subject.

[Ghost_Bass]

I used to use a big Trace rig (300W GP12 head + 2x10"H + 1x15) back in the day and started my way through the class-D path in order to downsize the weight and save me from spine issues.
Now i have two rigs and used them acording to the gig, the Promethean P5110 combo and a Shuttle 9.2 + BF Super12T, they're all class-D amps and the speaker on the ibanez is ceramic while the speaker on the BF is Neo. I also have a rack with a Alembic F1X and a KMT 1000W class-H poweramp for outdoor gigs.

No mather what rig i use (or what bass i use for that mather) i allways tend to find and use my personal sound. It helps that i like a fairly flat EQ. The only real diferences i find when comparing diferent types of amps is a bit of more low-end available on the AB/H amps but IMHO it isn't nearly enough to make me trade the weight and portability of a class-D/Neo rig. ( STL9.2+S12T = 20.5kg / TE rig = ~55kg...)

I hope manufacturers keep investing in Class-D/DSP/Neo research in order to give us more sound quality with less weight.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1435475314' post='2809019'] Thing that gets me is that my Walkabout goes wrong and I've got the service documents and could probably repair it myself, or pay someone to do it. Couldn't do that with a RH450 could you? [/quote]

Bit of bogus argument IMO - could you repair your smart phone or your flat screen TV if something serious went wrong ?.

[No lust in Jazz]

I can't see us doing a gig of any note without PA support. Our PA contractor has class D active cabs - so for all of the guts, heft and weight I have in the Walkabout power section the audience are still hearing a Class D amp.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1435663940' post='2811072'] But hold on. . . that's the worst of all worlds according to some people. So how come is it a universally acclaimed pairing for volume and tone? [/quote]

Psychology - peoples expectations alter their perception. This has been scientifically proven to some extent where they did brain scans of people during adverts for products and noted which areas got stimulated. When these people were exposed (ate/touched/whatever) to the product itself, the same brain areas were active as well as the normal sensory areas. People who were not exposed to the adverts did not exhibit the extra brain activity when using the product.

Tell people that class D amps sound "thin" from a trusted source enough times and thats how they will hear them, they will literally hear it differently. The RH450 episode is an interesting one because before that famous review where they tested the power output rigorously and found it was 240 watts or whatever and had a bit of a vicious HPF, the amp was getting rave writeups my most people I saw posting about it at the time.

Edited June 30, 2015 by bassman7755

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1435667156' post='2811134']
The RH450 episode is an interesting one because before that famous review where they tested the power output rigorously and found it was 240 watts or whatever and had a bit of a vicious HPF, the amp was getting rave writeups my most people I saw posting about it at the time.
[/quote]

Apart from me... after the novelty of having a small amp with all those bells and whistles and tube amp simulation wore off.

Psychology, you see? Expectations altered my perception

[Muzz]

Yep, I remember that...you were the lone voice in the wilderness...having said that, you did sell your Walkabout (for about a week, as I recall ), so anyone can make a mistake...