Sitting in the mix.......good, or bad?

[The Badderer]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1435773794' post='2812357']
Credit where it's due; this (below...) was being posted at the same time, and has pragmatic, practical advice as to how to achieve this fine balance. It can be done, quite easily, once all band members are working towards the same objective with open ears. Good luck with it all; it's very satisfying when it's all glueing together.
[/quote]

[quote name='tbonepete' timestamp='1435780665' post='2812449']
Yes, absolutely. I Also was responding to your post whilst others were coming through. iPad is being a bit strange today after an update. Thanks to all, I'm looking forward to having a proper gig type rehearsal to sort out the toe treading sound issues so that we can all be happy. The result of which should be a MUCH better band too, so that has to be a good thing!

Cheers Pete
[/quote]

Ahhhhh you guyyyyys!!! Always nice to be acknowledged

[Dad3353]

[quote name='The Badderer' timestamp='1435782420' post='2812473']
Ahhhhh you guyyyyys!!! Always nice to be acknowledged
[/quote]

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='tbonepete' timestamp='1435762068' post='2812219']
The question is about music as a whole, and not just the bass, so is it better to be so far in the mix to the point where one is having a hard job distinguishing what one is playing (but is complimented from those out front), or should the focus be on the stage sound and bugger everyone else?
[/quote]

Surely the whole point of playing in front of a audience is to give them the best possible sound, otherwise why bother, why not just play for yourselves in a rehearsal room ?.

You seem to have discounted the notion that its possible to be the right level out front and still hear youeself on stage which is a bit of a limiting attitude. You could get creative and try something like having a small powered wedge monitor which is slaved to your amp and pointed directly at your ears.

Edited July 2, 2015 by bassman7755

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1435814425' post='2812605']
You could get creative and try something like having a small powered wedge monitor which is slaved to your amp and pointed directly at your ears.
[/quote]

My latest experimental live rig is pretty much this - preamp DI to PA and a powered cab; the powered wedge monitor is plan Q in a long list of sequential plans.

Edited July 2, 2015 by No lust in Jazz

[tbonepete]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1435814425' post='2812605']


Surely the whole point of playing in front of a audience is to give them the best possible sound, otherwise why bother, why not just play for yourselves in a rehearsal room ?.

You seem to have discounted the notion that its possible to be the right level out front and still hear youeself on stage which is a bit of a limiting attitude. You could get creative and try something like having a small powered wedge monitor which is slaved to your amp and pointed directly at your ears.
[/quote]
Hi bassman7755,
I fully agree with your first sentence.
Your second sentence though is off the mark. It's your assumption that I haven't tried a monitor, and I'm not sure I agree with your comment about my attitude either, but I suppose you're entitled to your opinion. The main reason I'm responding is that it's still not an equipment question, but a musical question! There's always a mix good or bad, so is it better to sit in it, or be buried in it by the other players? This could equally apply to the guitarist who thinks the keys are in his/her space, or the vox who thinks everyone is in his/her space. Just trying to get some discussion about the musical aspect, and resultant difficulties of getting a musical mix that doesn't involve everything being louder than everything else. My personal experiences are that everything goes through the PA usually because the vox are usually using iem. It's a function band, not a stadium rock band, so the ideal would indeed be moderate stage volume (controlled by the drummer, and there's only one way that's going to go if the back line has monitors pointing at them, and more importantly, the drummer too), FOH mix from the main desk, that can be as different as the room, or occasion demands. Context is the key here, it's music for parties, and weddings, etc, not stadium, thrash gigs. Above all though, it's not a question about amps and cabs. Lol.

Cheers Pete.

[JTUK]

A lot of overthinking going on here...
Set up your instruments and play at a reasonable and loudish volume for the place you are playing in.

If this doesn't work... start a drum pattern, and play bass to it- pick a straight chugging pattern, and then layer the other instruments and
I'll bet that if yoiu have mix poroblems, the one instrument that will blow the mix is the gtr. his chugging will totally dominate everything else
and most importantly you wont hear the bass. That is the problem you fix.
With keys, you just pick a part that you both play similar and see if the keys take over...that is the part you fix.
The you turn up the vocals until you hear them..and then try and get them as half as loud again.
Sorted, should take 5 mins.

Then you tape your gigs and if the mixes onto something simple like Zoom device are also blown...go back to the drawing borad and retrain them.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='tbonepete' timestamp='1435818047' post='2812617']
Above all though, it's not a question about amps and cabs. Lol.
[/quote]

So ... you tell us that you have one amp that sounds great on stage but doesn't project out front, and another that is the opposite, how is that not a gear related problem ?.

[quote]There's always a mix good or bad, so is it better to sit in it, or be buried in it by the other players? [/quote]

You did not say that overall mix was bad [b]out front[/b], if it is then that is obviously the problem. On stage mixes are often very poor because the various amps people use sound different in close proximity and at various angles than when a greater distance and mainly in front of them, so a poor on stage mix does not necessarily indicate a wider mixing or arrangement problem.

Edited July 2, 2015 by bassman7755

[Phil Starr]

There's some good advice in here and I haven't read every post so forgive me if I'm repeating things people have already said.

As a bassist I like to sit in the mix and I like to hear the rest of the band more than hearing myself. But I've over 40 years on and off as a sound engineer and only 6 years as a musician, I'm fairly good at picking things out of a mix and not looking to have a forward position in the band.

How to do it seems to be the question. you want to prioritise the audience experience but also to hear yourself.

Firstly you need to look at eq. If one combo is letting you hear yourself and one not then it is about the balance between different frequencies. You don't need a lot of deep bass when you are playing, all the detail is in the mids and a lot of deep bass on stage is going to bleed into mics and reverberate in what is often a limited space. Cut the bass if you can.

The limited space thing is important too. The acoustics of all rooms vary dramatically and this affects bass more than any other instrument because of the long wavelengths of deep sounds. You have to eq for the room. No point in setting up your ideal sound in the rehearsal room or at home because generally you will be in a space smaller than the wavelength of your lowest frequencies.

Of course if you roll off the bass on stage you will be rolling it off for the audience too. If you possibly can put the bass through the PA and roll off the mids and highs through the PA if it's a small venue so the audience hear a balanced sound. My favourite set up is a small kickback on stage with the bass rolled almost right off and a nice deep bass through the PA. I've even tried just bass and kick through the bins with everything else through the tops to great effect. Drummers tend not to like this set up though, they seem to want to feel the bass.

If your stack is providing all the bass with no PA support make sure at least one speaker is pointing at your ears. Even when I'm using only one speaker I use the bottom speaker as a stand to get some height. You can also adjust your mix by moving around, if you halve your distance from the speaker you get an extra 6dB of sound level, noticeably louder. Moving away from the drums and any guitar amps will reduce their sound as well. There will be a sweet spot on the stage where you get what you want.

Finally be aware that deep bass is non directional, but your mids and just about all the guitarists sounds are highly directional spreading out as a cone of sound from the speakers. Imagine the sound pattern as being like a torch beam spreading from the centre of the cones. It's perfectly reasonable to ask the guitard to point his guitar amp away from you, and far less likely to cause conflict than turning him down as one person suggested!

Of course you could solve all the problems by everyone turning down and putting a mix through the floor monitors if they are good enough, but this involves complexity, expense and degree of professionalism few bands achieve.

So, eq deep bass off the stage, boost upper bass/mids if you can, add the deeps through the PA, point your speakers at your ears and look to the positioning of the back line. Should do the trick

[The Badderer]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1435825669' post='2812675']
So ... you tell us that you have one amp that sounds great on stage but doesn't project out front, and another that is the opposite, how is that not a gear related problem ?.



You did not say that overall mix was bad [b]out front[/b], if it is then that is obviously the problem. On stage mixes are often very poor because the various amps people use sound different in close proximity and at various angles than when a greater distance and mainly in front of them, so a poor on stage mix does not necessarily indicate a wider mixing or arrangement problem.
[/quote]

what I took from the OP was that, he has enough gear to sort out the problem, but is more wanting help in understanding how to get a decent band mix and how to find a decent place in the mix for bass, when competing with Guitar and Keys. I may have not got all the points in their but that was how I understood it.

More of a "Learning to understand how to get a good mix" question, than a "I have an issue with the gear that we are using to get a good mix". A subtle difference, but I think that's what the OP was about. Correct me if I'm wrong....

Edited July 2, 2015 by The Badderer

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='The Badderer' timestamp='1435827160' post='2812695']
what I took from the OP was that, he has enough gear to sort out the problem, but is more wanting help in understanding how to get a decent band mix and how to find a decent place in the mix for bass, when competing with Guitar and Keys. I may have not got all the points in their but that was how I understood it.

More of a "Learning to understand how to get a good mix" question, than a "I have an issue with the gear that we are using to get a good mix". A subtle difference, but I think that's what the OP was about. Correct me if I'm wrong....
[/quote]

Well we are speculating, without the OP telling us more precisely what the scope of the problem is (i.e. is it the on stage mix only, the out front mix only, or both) then its hard to offer more specific advice.

Edited July 2, 2015 by bassman7755

[bertbass]

Is the problem you or another member of the band? Our guitarist recently started using a ZT Lunchbox and the difference in the overall on and off stage sound of the band is amazing. The guitar no longer nicks my frequencies and everything is easier to hear. Quite a revelation!

[tbonepete]

Hi bassman7755,
The question is a general question on how a set of frequencies in a song/or set of songs is populated by band members who are playing said song/songs, ie the mix. Amps and cabs aspect are meaningless in this context as what I play, who I play with, where I play, and what we all play on are all going to be different to the same question applied to you and your band, so it's really about the mix. More particularly, it's about the relationship between the stage mix, and the front of house mix. This is why I used the terms combo A, and combo B in the original post. It was meant to differentiate between two different scenarios that's all. I see that wasn't as clear as it could have been when I saw a post thinking that I was using two combos, and intimating that combos aren't very good anyway.
So, I've received some interesting and informative posts on the subject in question, and JTUK's recent post would seem to point to a practical non combative way of getting a decent mix. I'm of the opinion (and it's only an opinion), that it's all about the mix, not all about the bass per se.
The question also was aimed at the wider world, not just me, as every musician bassist or otherwise has it in their best interests to make the whole band sound good, again it's the mix, not individuals equipment at play here.
If you still think it's a question about amps and cabs be my guest in getting the title changed and getting the thread moved to amps and cabs where you can take the thread over, I don't mind.

Cheers Pete.

[No lust in Jazz]

For reasons unknown I can't quote posts - but the two offerings from JTUK make a lot of sense.

Where things get a little weird for me on stage is being caught in monitor mix / backline cross fire - e.g. a vocalist guitarist wanting some more guitar in his monitors in addition to his backline, I've found that this can overwhelm the bass as balanced with the drum kit, there isn't a dedicated bass monitor mix / not enough monitor mixes and the answer isn't to turn the stage bass volume up - so for now I'm moving away from a backline set up

[JTUK]

Another thing...concentrate of a good stage mix... and if you are playing a small venue with no FOH..then the good 'onstage'
has the best chance to transfer. Stage mixes don't magically fix themselves so if it doesn't sound good to you..chances are
it wont anywhere else.
Of course there are local little things like traps etc which don't help, but there is not a great deal that can help them anyway.

If you are worried about FOH as you can't hear it..then you need a guy who can hear and deal with FOH.

But if you have a crap stage sound, how is the FOH going to fix that....? if you have a good sorted stage sound, any decent engr should be
able to at least transfer that to the FOH sound... and he may even tweak it a tad better and it makes the soundcheck quick and painless, IMO.

I've never been one who agrees that the bass should sound weedy onstage..and therefore sacrifices your (the bass player) performance for the sake of the overall good.
All that says to me is that the bass hasn't got their sound right in context with the band.
With mixing, always start from the bottom up... so drums, bass, keys, gtr and then vox... and bare is mind that gtr and keys NEVER carry the band in place of the bass. That is what the bass has to do.. Gtrs and keys are dressing or colour..flowery, IMO. Bass is TH foundation...but also I like to have character there and not just a boom presense.. If gtrs and keys act like the want to carry or drive the band...maybe you have the wrong players..??

[KevB]

But you frequently get a 'distorted' mix of the relative proportions of various instruments as you're stood 'on stage' just depending where you are stood and what you're playing. This is not translated to the FOH overall sound that the audiences hears. This is where you have backline that doesn't go through any PA or monitors of course (common for weekend pub bands).

[JTUK]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1435845393' post='2812973']
But you frequently get a 'distorted' mix of the relative proportions of various instruments as you're stood 'on stage' just depending where you are stood and what you're playing. This is not translated to the FOH overall sound that the audiences hears. This is where you have backline that doesn't go through any PA or monitors of course (common for weekend pub bands).
[/quote]

why..? you can either hear everything or you can't?

If you aren't running front of house, your onstage mix becomes THE mix.
We use mons for vox only and if I can't hear an instrument onstage, I'm wondering why straight away.
I'm playing WITH the guys so I want to hear everything. There can be no guesses otherwise you'll
never get a tight band

[cheddatom]

well if you're closer to the bass amp, the bass will be louder, so it's distorting your perception of the mix overall


Reading through this debate a lot of the advice seems to be about EQ and the "space" in the frequency spectrum which each instrument should sit in. That's important, but in my opinion most of the "space" in a mix is created by dynamics, reverb, and good levelling. Several people have talked about keeping the guitars and bass separate in terms of EQ, which is fine, but what if you've got two guitarists and a keyboard? There's a lot of overlap there. There's nothing wrong with two instruments producing the same frequencies, as long as it doesn't get mushy

[KevB]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1435848436' post='2813010'] why..? you can either hear everything or you can't? If you aren't running front of house, your onstage mix becomes THE mix. We use mons for vox only and if I can't hear an instrument onstage, I'm wondering why straight away. I'm playing WITH the guys so I want to hear everything. There can be no guesses otherwise you'll never get a tight band [/quote] Not really no. If I'm stood next to the snare and second gtr's combo but the lead gtr's combo is over the other side of the stage the relative amounts of what *I* hear bears no relation to what someone in the middle of the room is hearing. If I asked the lead gtr to turn up to a level so it was level in vol with other things *to me* I can put good money it will then be far too prominent in the FOH mix.

Edited July 2, 2015 by KevB

[JTUK]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1435849269' post='2813030']
Not really no. If I'm stood next to the snare and second gtr's combo but the lead gtr's combo is over the other side of the stage the relative amounts of what *I* hear bears no relation to what someone in the middle of the room is hearing. If I asked the lead gtr to turn up to a level so it was level in vol with other things *to me* I can put good money it will then be far too prominent in the FOH mix.
[/quote]

You are stuffed then.... but IME this happens so rarely if you have thought out the sound and mix.
I don't really recognise most of these issues, tbh.

The only time it may go to pot is towards the end of the second set when ears are a tad tired and people are getting
over enthusiastic...but even then, it is time for a review.
Twin gtrs may be more of a problem but mostly because they use the same ball park sound...
One reason why you REALLY don't want two gtrs playing with twin HB's...
You need to thin the sound out... so that means you have a thin gtr and thicker gtr.

You have to avoid the wall of sound 95% of the time...

Edited July 2, 2015 by JTUK

[JTUK]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1435848690' post='2813016']
well if you're closer to the bass amp, the bass will be louder, so it's distorting your perception of the mix overall


Reading through this debate a lot of the advice seems to be about EQ and the "space" in the frequency spectrum which each instrument should sit in. That's important, but in my opinion most of the "space" in a mix is created by dynamics, reverb, and good levelling. Several people have talked about keeping the guitars and bass separate in terms of EQ, which is fine, but what if you've got two guitarists and a keyboard? There's a lot of overlap there. There's nothing wrong with two instruments producing the same frequencies, as long as it doesn't get mushy
[/quote]

If you have two gtrs and keys, you are going to have to have very sensible and senstive players.. and really think thru your song and approach to songs.
Most gtr players just can't do it... and you have to have players that are prepared to layer what they play... even to the point that they drop in and out.
They need to know dynamics...and they need to talk thru the parts they play... and if they are playing chords, they need to be aware and avoid the chords shapes the other guys plays...

[cheddatom]

yes, agreed, it's all about being sensitive to the sound of the song as a whole

[No lust in Jazz]

We always have a FOH engineer and our fee pays for this. Feedback from clients and punters plus repeat gigs tell us that this is worthwhile.

Areas that we have worked on include:

Sorting out parts for the guitarists so that they are playing the music not constantly duelling.
Sorting out Keyboard patches so patch changes do not present dB boost problems

As we've worked this out we have got quieter, leading to my use of a powered cab as monitor rather than using a Bass 'dreadnought' rig.

Edited July 2, 2015 by No lust in Jazz

[KevB]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1435849995' post='2813043']
You are stuffed then.... but IME this happens so rarely if you have thought out the sound and mix.
I don't really recognise most of these issues, tbh.
[/quote]

No we're not, I just know I'll need to concentrate a bit more on the things that are naturally going to be lower in the mix *to me* because of where I'm standing but sound fine to the audience. Considering we're just getting up and running with the new band we've had some very complimentary responses from the gigs to date. Does this make it any easier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS12p0Zqlt0

[JTUK]

So..you are trying to mix something and be confident that it will sound good but you don't really know that because you don't really trust what you are hearing because of where you are standing.. ? for a pub, that IS the mix..!! if it is low for you 15 ft away...chances are your audience is the same sort of distance..?

It is good that you have good responses from the people listening to you...but they aren't any sort of reference I'd trust as I've heard their (the ppl who say that to us) bands

If you think you sound good and have it sorted...then great.

[TimR]

If you can't hear the guitar properly mixed with the bass in a pub environment then there is a good chance the guitar amp is pointed straight out to the audience and not angled inwards.

Try changing that and see what difference it makes to your perception.