Rig shrinking - bass world surely leading the way?

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 28, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[EliasMooseblaster]

I'll tell you where guitarists are leaving us behind, and that's in low-wattage valve amps. I think a lot of manufacturers are cottoning on to the idea that most guitarists no longer have any use for a 100W valve head and a couple of 4x12s, and increasingly I've seen a rise in valve combos putting out 15W or less.

Now I realise that a 15W bass head is not going to give you a huge amount of deep bass response, but I'm a little surprised that the smaller valve head hasn't taken off in the same way for bass amps. The Ashdown Little Bastard does surprisingly well for a 30W head (I've gigged it a few times), and I would have thought that a lot of players who like a vintage valve sound might find, say, a 50 or 60W head sufficient for small gigs. (Though I should add that I've been perfectly happy with my own 100W bass head so far!)

[Conan]

[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1436192924' post='2815789']
There has been a big swing back towards Fender basses- in the 80's they were going cheap cause they were old junkers. The cool kids had something headless with batteries and lots of straight lines! But then, the same was true of guitars for a while.
[/quote]Guilty - having just sold my Status and now owning five Fender (or derivatives) Jazz basses!!

[Lozz196]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1436191663' post='2815766']
Did we? I reckon at gigs I see more P and J basses than I do Les Pauls and Strats. I'm not sure I buy this "bass players are more innovative" line when it comes to instruments. For amps, sure, but not instruments.
[/quote]

Well carting the basses themselves around isn`t that difficult, in comparison to a flightcased Ampeg 810. I think we`re on the innovative side more through practicality than really embracing new ideas. I`m sure if P and J basses were 25lbs in weight and someone invented basses weighing 10lbs we`d all be snapping them up.

[Bradwell]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1436188631' post='2815705']
Guitarists are beginning to embrace modern technology more, things like the AxeFX, the new Line6 Helix, other modellers, and even older technology like PODs got/are getting a lot of attention and use.
[/quote]

I'd love to try an AxeFX as they get rave reviews, but given the price tag I'll stick with valve amps for playing my guitar. I think the technology of modelling amps is getting better all the time, but will take a while before it's genuinely competitive at a lower price point. Older Line 6 modelling amps just get lost in a band mix to my ears.

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1436194059' post='2815811']
I'll tell you where guitarists are leaving us behind, and that's in low-wattage valve amps. I think a lot of manufacturers are cottoning on to the idea that most guitarists no longer have any use for a 100W valve head and a couple of 4x12s, and increasingly I've seen a rise in valve combos putting out 15W or less.
[/quote]

They're fantastic for home recording, but as a rock bassist I'd want high power handling if using it for gigs. The compromise I would go for would be a valve pre-amp with the options of either a ) inbuilt, low-wattage valve output stage or, b ) sending the pre-amp signal into an external power amp.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Bradwell

[Ghost_Bass]

Had a guitar player who used a Fender Jazzmaster amp and cab:


Incredibly small (1x12"), very light (the cab is lighter than the Barefaced Midget T i had at that time) and stupidly loud (250W @ 2ohms - yes, the cab was also 2 ohms!!! - it filled a theatre room by itself on a soundcheck).

I also know guys using a Hughes & Kettner similar config rig and also sounds immense!

So the lightweight gear is already available for guitar players but i think they're more tradicional when it comes to gear and won't take changes/technology advances as easilly as bass players.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1436191663' post='2815766']
Did we? I reckon at gigs I see more P and J basses than I do Les Pauls and Strats. I'm not sure I buy this "bass players are more innovative" line when it comes to instruments. For amps, sure, but not instruments.
[/quote]

Maybe but with basses there's a lot more variety in wood type, shape, string numbers out there. Many on here (myself included) drool over Ritters, Sei's and the likes with the far more extreme body shapes, exotic woods and multi band pre amps. I agree that it's less of a move away from the original designs than amps but I've always felt there's a wider range of choice of styles for basses than guitars. Like Lozz says though there is less of a need for size reduction in a bass than an amp.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1436199166' post='2815883']
Had a guitar player who used a Fender Jazzmaster amp and cab:


Incredibly small (1x12"), very light (the cab is lighter than the Barefaced Midget T i had at that time) and stupidly loud (250W @ 2ohms - yes, the cab was also 2 ohms!!! - it filled a theatre room by itself on a soundcheck).

I also know guys using a Hughes & Kettner similar config rig and also sounds immense!

So the lightweight gear is already available for guitar players but i think they're more tradicional when it comes to gear and won't take changes/technology advances as easilly as bass players.
[/quote]

Now that's more like it. That to me represents a significant step forward. Is it valve?

[Ghost_Bass]

The Fender i'm sure it's SS (class-D and the cab is Neo) but i can't say the same about the H&K from what i can remember, maybe it has a valve pre.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1436201563' post='2815924']
The Fender i'm sure it's SS (class-D and the cab is Neo) but i can't say the same about the H&K from what i can remember, maybe it has a valve pre.
[/quote]
The leap to SS may be what is currently holding many players back from going this way.

For me this is the biggest game changer for guitarists http://www.kemper-amps.com/lineup

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1436191663' post='2815766']
I reckon at gigs I see more P and J basses than I do Les Pauls and Strats.
[/quote]

Maybe this is a genre thing. I currently play in three bands with electric guitarists, each band playing covers from different periods.

Guitars used in the last year:[list]
[*]2 x Strat
[*]2 x Les Paul
[*]1 x Tele
[*]1 x Jaguar
[*]1 x Flying V
[*]1 x Yamaha 335-alike
[*]1 x Danelectro
[/list]

[JapanAxe]

I gig on both guitar and bass, and the one thing with which I have yet to go lightweight is my valve guitar combo. It's a stupendously loud 15W 1x12, but still fairly heavy, especially in its flight case (which doubles as a stand).

I would have to be seriously convinced to go down the Class D route for guitar. Matrix Amplification do a Marshall-stylee hybrid head (see pic below), and lightweight Neo-loaded cabs, but I am waiting for them to bring out a head based on a Deluxe Reverb or an AC30!

[Passinwind]

[i][b]Bass world surely leading the way?[/b][/i]

IMO, hardly. Pro sound reinforcement pretty much drives the bus and we get crumbs eventually.

[ezbass]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1436201563' post='2815924']
The Fender i'm sure it's SS (class-D and the cab is Neo) but i can't say the same about the H&K from what i can remember, maybe it has a valve pre.
[/quote]The HK Tubemeister 36 is all tube and bloody loud, my guitarist uses one with a 1x12 cab. It also has DI if he wants to keep his onstage volume down and he often does. Rare, right? But that's 2 guitarists in a row I've played with that have the same ethos; I consider myself lucky.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1436209158' post='2816041']
[i][b]Bass world surely leading the way?[/b][/i]

IMO, hardly. Pro sound reinforcement pretty much drives the bus and we get crumbs eventually.
[/quote]
Agree in terms of the tech but have they seen such a significant size reduction in cabs? Actually I guess all the skinny column speakers and 12inch subs would suggest that they are leading with that too.

[JTUK]

You'll always see a bass player with a 12" combo trying to work against a half stack and shed-builder and it works for them
with varying degrees of success or they think it does.

Depends what you and they want to hear.

Off the top of my head, the guys around here with a good sound tend to use minimum 2x112's.
The gtrs run 1x12 valve combos and they are more than enough...altho a 50/100 valve head with power soak into 212 is close.
Keys tend to have a mini p.a rig as their patches have been built as stereo. They will have a Nord stage or two banks

I would say those guys are really sensitive to their sound so they use what they feel is best anf by and large, I'd definitely say
they have better ears than most bass players and know their sounds better.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1436206190' post='2815994']
The leap to SS may be what is currently holding many players back from going this way.

For me this is the biggest game changer for guitarists [url="http://www.kemper-amps.com/lineup"]http://www.kemper-amps.com/lineup[/url]
[/quote]

I dont see what the big deal is about them TBH, the only difference between this and any other modeller is that it models your personal amp rather than a random one used to get the preset profile for say a line 6. OK maybe if youve got some ultra rare amp but does it really make any odds to get a modeller sound to like the stock fender twin you personally own vs the one used in the R&D lab by line 6.

Edited July 6, 2015 by bassman7755

[Passinwind]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1436209773' post='2816054']
Agree in terms of the tech but have they seen such a significant size reduction in cabs? Actually I guess all the skinny column speakers and 12inch subs would suggest that they are leading with that too.
[/quote]

That was my thinking, but things like powered 12s and 10s on sticks actually work pretty well for a lot of people these days too. Or to look at it another way, big old stacks for front of house may still be fairly big and heavy, but that are a lot more capable than they used to be, and the amp racks are a lot lighter. In any case, I can often do fine with a 33 lb. 1 X 12 on my gigs that used to require a 2 X15 rig, and I'm not complaining a bit!

Edited July 7, 2015 by Passinwind

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1436208322' post='2816030']
I would have to be seriously convinced to go down the Class D route for guitar. Matrix Amplification do a Marshall-stylee hybrid head (see pic below), and lightweight Neo-loaded cabs, but I am waiting for them to bring out a head based on a Deluxe Reverb or an AC30!
[/quote]

I wonder if some of the Quilter amps might get you a little further in that direction, since they come with reverb and tremolo:
[url="http://www.quilterlabs.com/index.php/products/mach2-amplifiers/micropro-mach-2-head"]http://www.quilterlabs.com/index.php/products/mach2-amplifiers/micropro-mach-2-head[/url]

[scalpy]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1436214076' post='2816120']


I dont see what the big deal is about them TBH, the only difference between this and any other modeller is that it models your personal amp rather than a random one used to get the preset profile for say a line 6. OK maybe if youve got some ultra rare amp but does it really make any odds to get a modeller sound to like the stock fender twin you personally own vs the one used in the R&D lab by line 6.
[/quote]

One guitarist I work with uses one. Ok he has some nice amps to model but he also has downloaded loads, for instance the model of the hiwatt used on dark side of the moon. When he's in a situation where there's a good amp lying around, out comes the kemper and 10 minutes later he's got a profile done. He even did my rig, although it's not quite as successful with bass amp sounds. Line 6 do great models but when I was with Paul he modelled a 58 bass man with his mic choice, his mic placement, neve pres and has the satisfaction of knowing that's about as good as it's going to get, anywhere in the world regardless of the gig.

Edited July 7, 2015 by scalpy

[IanA]

I know 2 guitarists with axe fx and they both swear by them, with a decent IEM set up and more venues running P/A I wonder whether cabs might even become redundant all together in the future?

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1436265458' post='2816482']
One guitarist I work with uses one. Ok he has some nice amps to model but he also has downloaded loads, for instance the model of the hiwatt used on dark side of the moon. When he's in a situation where there's a good amp lying around, out comes the kemper and 10 minutes later he's got a profile done. He even did my rig, although it's not quite as successful with bass amp sounds. Line 6 do great models but when I was with Paul he modelled a 58 bass man with his mic choice, his mic placement, neve pres and has the satisfaction of knowing that's about as good as it's going to get, anywhere in the world regardless of the gig.
[/quote]

Well thats entirely fair enough, I'm not denying its a useful bit of kit for specialised needs, I was rather taking issue with it being labelled a "game changer" when fundamentally there is no new technology involved - it merely gives the consumer access to the model creation part of the process.