gypsyjazzer Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 When improvising over a chord sequence--either backing the front line or taking a solo--one has a vast amount of notes to choose from--what with chord tones / passing notes / chromatic lines / endless scales. I realise that one has to keep whithin the confinements of the chord being played. But with all the choices of above is it common to go out of the bounderies of the chord?--to play an ear pleasing phrase--using any note as long as it has the basic frame work of the chord?--notes that do not belong to that chord? Hope the question makes sense. [b]On really fast tempo tunes[/b]--such as early bebop--can the bass lines make sense to the front line or even to the bass player him or herself? (If they can keep up!) [b]And[/b] take a chorus or two! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 [quote name='gypsyjazzer' timestamp='1437132471' post='2823842'] When improvising over a chord sequence--either backing the front line or taking a solo--one has a vast amount of notes to choose from--what with chord tones / passing notes / chromatic lines / endless scales. I realise that one has to keep whithin the confinements of the chord being played. But with all the choices of above is it common to go out of the bounderies of the chord?--to play an ear pleasing phrase--using any note as long as it has the basic frame work of the chord?--notes that do not belong to that chord? Hope the question makes sense. [b]On really fast tempo tunes[/b]--such as early bebop--can the bass lines make sense to the front line or even to the bass player him or herself? (If they can keep up!) [b]And[/b] take a chorus or two! [/quote] When one is improvising, the notes are being 'heard' mentally, and will be as 'right' as one's imagination. If it feels good, do it. It's best to not tread on the toes of the other band members, so one has to be very 'aware' of what's going on around, and try to respect either the melody or someone else's solo. For one's own solo spot, it's for the others to keep up, though..! Any tempo has to make sense to all, including an audience, whether supporting or soloing. It's not always easy, of course, but one is not obliged to take a solo in the same frenetic tempo as everyone else. Half-time (or even rests..!) are fine, if they're musical. All imo, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsyjazzer Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Thanks Dad3353 for your very useful info. Much appreciated. How much do you think the rest of the band listen to the bass player-say-% wise: a) Notes Keeping good time c) Intonation d) 'Feel' for the band Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Others may have differing appreciations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 This is a massive question and one that will not be best served by a short answer. The fact is that there is no such thing as a wrong note, just a poor choice. The 'rightness' of a note is determined by not only its theoretical relationship with the harmony, it is also determined by a note's place in the presentation of an idea, phrase etc. If it has a legitimate logic, it is a legitimate note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) You mention chromatic runs in the OP; this is a good example of playing a note 'outside' the scale and it working well. If you are doing a chromatic run (containing an outside note, most do) leading up to a very safe note and time (eg root note on the one) then the run sounds fine, especially if there is very little emphasis on the 'outside' note. As Bilbo says, it's all about context of the note within the phrase. Edit: sorry if this is a bit 'playschool' and you were after something more advanced 😳 Edited July 19, 2015 by Roland Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepbass5 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I play in a couple of swing bands and although my reading is now good, when i am presented with just chord sheets or a passage with chord progression I find the opposite occurs, rather than being overwhelmed by the amount of choice open to me, i freeze into a predictable cycle of arpeggios rather than a nice walking pattern, i am aware of the use of chromatic approach notes but seldom use it to good affect. But i do know this is my weak point and try to work on it. That said i do listen to what other sections are doing and play sympathetic phrases that supports the general tune or phrases being played elsewhere. This means my playing fits in, so ticks most of Dads boxes. know where it is important to be doing the right thing, the start and end of phrases and approaches to key changes etc, you can often get away with things elsewhere. A good jazz bass player is like a guide dog, guiding brass soloists around the piece so they don't have to think, where am I , what's he at now your choice of notes tells them what chord tone you will be playing in two beats time ah we are at the Verse, thought so. So when they have been enjoying a 32 bar solo and think did we do the repeat, ah yes the bass player sounds like he is building to the key change in the second time bar. phew I'm glad he is playing for us tonight, I don't have to think. I just wish that was me i was talking about, Its a long journey this bass playing lark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) [quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1437339501' post='2825207'] I play in a couple of swing bands and although my reading is now good, when i am presented with just chord sheets or a passage with chord progression I find the opposite occurs, rather than being overwhelmed by the amount of choice open to me, i freeze into a predictable cycle of arpeggios rather than a nice walking pattern, i am aware of the use of chromatic approach notes but seldom use it to good affect. But i do know this is my weak point and try to work on it. That said i do listen to what other sections are doing and play sympathetic phrases that supports the general tune or phrases being played elsewhere. This means my playing fits in, so ticks most of Dads boxes. know where it is important to be doing the right thing, the start and end of phrases and approaches to key changes etc, you can often get away with things elsewhere. A good jazz bass player is like a guide dog, guiding brass soloists around the piece so they don't have to think, where am I , what's he at now your choice of notes tells them what chord tone you will be playing in two beats time ah we are at the Verse, thought so. So when they have been enjoying a 32 bar solo and think did we do the repeat, ah yes the bass player sounds like he is building to the key change in the second time bar. phew I'm glad he is playing for us tonight, I don't have to think. I just wish that was me i was talking about, Its a long journey this bass playing lark. [/quote] ... and you're taking your cues from the sympathetic and tasteful drummer, the only one on the bandstand that knows the pieces thoroughly..! Exactly how things should be; keep it up. Edited July 19, 2015 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1437152633' post='2824098'] Others may have differing appreciations... [/quote] Chris Fitzgerald (who has a great set of instructional vids on YouTube) does something similar. He has a list of Bass Line Priorities which is this:- [list=1] [*]Time/Groove/Form [*]Time/Groove/Form [*]Time/Groove/Form [*]Time/Groove/Form [*]Time/Groove/Form [*]Time/Groove/Form [*]Time/Groove/Form [*]Time/Groove/Form [*]Time/Groove/Form [*]Interesting note choices [/list] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 That makes great copy but, in Jazz, you cannot really play a credible groove without understanding the issues of interesting note choices. Whereas a pop or funk tunes generally requires acres of repetition and nuanced variations are nice but superfluous, a Jazz walking line requires endless variation and interaction so playing the same thing again and again would be counter-productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 That's a fair point Bilbo, and me posting it like that is taking it out of its context. My reading of what he means is that as a beginner you should concentrate on Time/Groove/Form (which includes creating varied walking bass lines) and that playing some of the more 'exotic' note choices should never be at the expense of the other stuff. But it's a great video so people who are interested should [url="http://youtu.be/SoIUfa98X3g"]take a look[/url] and get the proper context rather than relying on my interpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsyjazzer Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 Many thanks 'tinyd' for the Chris Fitzgerald video link. Chris Fitzgerald is a great teacher--comes over extremely well--easy to understand. Every jazz bassist should have his book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Hi gypsyjazzer. Bit of a rambling reply, hope some of it's on the money. Your question is an interesting one. You're talking about playing "outside", which means using notes that do not belong to the key/chord of the movement. This a common technique amongst jazz pros, and is very effective when used with taste. For example, something Mike Brecker would do (I suspect he got this from Woody Shaw) is over a minor chord, say C-7, he would play Cm pentatonic licks and slip into F# min pentatonic, then back into Cm pentatonic. This creates a nice sense of movement over a static chord, and has a great modern sound. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FcVhTrvDXM The thing is though, your outside playing is only as good as your inside playing. You need to play out from somewhere, and you need to come back to somewhere. Yes, over changes you can technically play anything (Listen to Ornette's jaw-droppingly beautiful solo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89XGd9tG-30) but really there must be some logic to what you're doing. Patterns are good, our brains like patterns and will tolerate a huge amount of dissonance if it is systematic in some detectable way. Most jazz is rooted in the tradition and is comprised of idiomatic musical language. People build on it, but you must build on this foundation. There are idiomatic ways of adding non-diatonic notes to your improvisation, whether it be adding altered tensions to a V chord, or chromatically approaching chord tones. In my opinion, there are two major approaches to jazz soloing (bit of a false dichotomy, but meh) chord-based, or key-based. Chord based soloing is very bebop - you emphasise chord tones, and place them on strong beats using chromatic notes in a systematic manner. Key soloing you play the key of the moment, and are less literal with the chord changes (e.g. playing Bb blues scale over all of a Bb jazz blues). You need a strong sense of melody to do this, and in a way what you play does relate back to the chords of the moment. This can be also thought of as a modal (scalar) approach, and Miles was the alpha and omega of this as far as I'm concerned. You end up playing lots of upper structures over certain chords. Most decent jazzers will take a mix of chord and key approach, and even better ones still won't even think in these terms. You must be fluent in both styles, and absorb through transcription ways that past masters have played over changes using both techniques (or a mixture!). To speak the tradition, you must learn the language from transcription, not just to get the notes but the phrasing. For example, the b3 in the blues scale is often bent slightly sharp. You don't get that in written transcriptions. Getting the hang of playing very inside will eventually give you the freedom to step outside at will. I've heard it likened to taking a journey. When you first live in a new city, you take specific routes between new places. But eventually you have a spatial understanding that transcends simple learned routes, and you're able to mix and match how you travel through the city. You could walk anywhere, but it is still rooted in your understanding of normal routes. So far I have been talking about soloing, but walking is much the same. There is a basic formula for creating good sounding walking bass lines that clearly outline the harmony. This is a very chord-based approach. I would recommend getting very fluent in this style before approaching a more modal way of thinking. Up tempo soloing is a pig to be sure (especially on DB). My recommendation would be to think slooooow. Play simple melodies in the key of the moment, try to outline chord movements where you can but don't fuss about getting them all, and thinking in larger chunks of harmony than individual chords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Brilliant post, Hector. Sums it up perfectly. As for fast solos; I always think in terms of short phrases, strong rhythms and leaving plenty of space to allow ideas to breath, to sink in and to be digestable. You can fly on something like a soprano sax but, on a double bass, this can end up sounding muddy because the note's timbre has no room to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsyjazzer Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 I agree with Bilbo, excellent post Hector. Well put & plenty 'to go at'. Thanks everybody for your great input to my question--much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Always glad to help! I am thinkingof starting teaching a bit, so need to shed my explaining chops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 'explaining chops'. I gotta get me some of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepbass5 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Hector, happy to meet up and be your first victim sorry student. PM me, always glad to hear others views on the art of good walking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Would love to - sure you'd have just as much to teach me! Are you Oxford based? I'm actually moving house (to that London) this coming weekend, but would be free after that and might be popping back up to Oxford now and then, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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