Class D amps lack uumph?

[wateroftyne]

I think more and more people are starting to realise that the modules used in the current crop of lightweight heads are lacking.

I won't be going back until something new is available.

[JapanAxe]

Time to put down my popcorn...

This topic is begging for a blind shoot-out along the lines of Lozz's Precision test.

- Well-spec'd reference cab
- Precision bass - blindfolded player - simple bass line
- Variety of Class D and conventional SS heads, EQ set flat, volume adjusted up/down at request of blindfolded player
- The whole lot behind a curtain

One for the next SE Bass Bash?

[grenadilla]

I would like to hear a comment from someone who usually uses a big 810 'refrigerator' loud or peacefully to say a 500-1000 watt class D is " fine, OK, Thin, or whatever "

[Grangur]

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1437246166' post='2824675']


http://basschat.co.uk/topic/266141-wee-article-to-help-demystify-amps/
[/quote]
+1

It all depends on how you use it and what you use it for. If you play metal it might struggle. If you play funk it might be ok.

Read the article in the other thread

[chris_b]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1437308956' post='2824973']
This topic is begging for a blind shoot-out along the lines of Lozz's Precision test.
One for the next SE Bass Bash?
[/quote]

Already done. . . last year or was it the year before?

The differences were on a par with. . . do you prefer yellow socks or red socks. I didn't hear anyone say that they would be changing their amp as a result of anything they heard in the test.

I started when you could only get valve amps and there were a lot which sounded crap. So IME, valve amps do not always sound better, D class amps do not always sound worse and you can't generalise about SS amps either.

As I said, they all lack oomph? No. Are some better than others? Of course. Anyone generalising? I don't believe them.

[wateroftyne]

I doubt you'd tell unless you could A\B them in a real-life scenario with a drummer.

But then, I think it's either something you pick up on, or it passes you by.

[VTypeV4]

It's a very hot subject at the minute, isn't it..?

I've heard Long Time Freds TC Blacksmith and there's no lack of horsepower there and whilst he seems unhappy with his speakers currently, however I look at it, it was bloody loud! We tried it through my SWR 2x10s and I was worried for my voice-coils!

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1437308956' post='2824973']
Time to put down my popcorn...

This topic is begging for a blind shoot-out along the lines of Lozz's Precision test.

- Well-spec'd reference cab
- Precision bass - blindfolded player - simple bass line
- Variety of Class D and conventional SS heads, EQ set flat, volume adjusted up/down at request of blindfolded player
- The whole lot behind a curtain

One for the next SE Bass Bash?
[/quote]
[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1437313640' post='2825010']
Already done. . . last year or was it the year before?

The differences were on a par with. . . do you prefer yellow socks or red socks. I didn't hear anyone say that they would be changing their amp as a result of anything they heard in the test.

[/quote]

Link to the thread? Can't believe I missed it!

[CamdenRob]

IMO it's a trade off...

I would change my current rig for a glockenklang bac and the matching 6x10 if I had someone else to carry it for me. As I don't, I'm more than happy with the sound I currently get from a class D and neo cabs.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='bassmachine2112' timestamp='1437294665' post='2824824']
I,ve never heard anybody say that an Orange Terror bass is short in the underpants department.
I use a SP212 cab isobaric and it carries and slams no problem.
[/quote]
I clicked on this thread to leave the same comment. I have heard people describe class D as lacking weight or heft in the sound, but the OBT has it in spades. This thing defies the class D myth, if it exists at all. Great amps, loads of punch and meat to the sound. The downside is they are not the most versatile amp and I would recommend swapping the ECC83's for some NOS 81's.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1437308956' post='2824973']
Time to put down my popcorn...

This topic is begging for a blind shoot-out along the lines of Lozz's Precision test.
[/quote]

... which, assuming your talking about the rosewood vs maple one, was not a blind test and therefore of little value (no offence to loz intended).

Edited July 19, 2015 by bassman7755

[Dan Dare]

I think some lightweight amps suffer because they have switch mode power supplies, which are very susceptible to a poor quality mains supply. With no power reservoir, they cannot deal with voltage fluctuation (which is surprisingly common).

[dannybuoy]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1437324539' post='2825087']
[b]I clicked on this thread to leave the same comment.[/b] I have heard people describe class D as lacking weight or heft in the sound, but the OBT has it in spades. This thing defies the class D myth, if it exists at all. Great amps, loads of punch and meat to the sound. The downside is they are not the most versatile amp and I would recommend swapping the ECC83's for some NOS 81's.
[/quote]

Me too!

I've tried a few other class D heads that exhibited the same problem - Genz Benz Streamliner, Ashdown MiBass for example; neither could deliver the heft and thump of the OTB.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1437329181' post='2825118']
... which, assuming your talking about the rosewood vs maple one, was not a blind test and therefore of little value (no offence to loz intended).
[/quote]

I wasn't there but I thought the audience voted for the best-sounding P without seeing it?

[Muzz]

Not an issue as far as I'm concerned - I've had (owned and gigged, rather than just heard) all-valve, AB and D stuff over 35 years, and I've had bad uns and good uns in both/all three camps. Someone said earlier it's an issue if you can hear it (whether this is actual or psychologically influenced only a proper blind test would prove, but even then, like the scrap plank bass test, it's unlikely to change opinions), but lots and lots of other factors are much much more important to me.

I've kept my Streamliner through lots of other amps, D and AB (I've no room in my life for an all-valve behemoth - I kinda wish I did), and it works for me, and with the Compact/Midget can bring the house down: 'umph', 'heft', whatever, all day.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1437284050' post='2824781']
The way I've always thought of it as, is that Class D 'sounds' loud while class A 'is' loud.
[/quote]Class A is not used an any real amplifier over about 10 watts.

You probably mean Class A/B.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1437245646' post='2824674']
It's one of those statements I've heard more than once, 'class D amps can be loud but they don't carry. You can't hear them at the back of the room'. Is this another urban myth. Volts are volts, right?[/quote]

Class D amps can certainly lack OOMPH when they fail to produce full power for the length of a bass note - it isn't because they're class D though, it's because many are built around modules which are made for typical program material which has a greater peak:average ratio than some bass sounds. But anyone claiming that:

[b]'class D amps can be loud but they don't carry. You can't hear them at the back of the room'.[/b]

isn't making much sense. The sound from a cab gets quieter the further you get from it and the amp driving it has no effect on that.

[Ghost_Bass]

I believe it all comes down to amp design. I have a Shuttle 9.2 and with a flat setting it lacks low-end but i also have a class-D Promethean head and it puts a lot of class-AB amps on its pace.

I also have a class-H poweramp that´s heftier then a lot of class-AB i've heard.

So it's not a rule, in most situations AB has more rumble than a D but there are exceptions.

[neepheid]

Well, if the one or two (hell, even five) Class D amps which one has tried aren't producing the goods versus the one or two (or even five) Class AB ones one has listened to, then of course it stands to reason that all Class D amps are crap and all Class AB are awesome. QED?

Edited July 20, 2015 by neepheid

[Kiwi]

I like Class D a lot, I haven't found any of the Class D amps I've owned lacking in warmth. I don't need to feel rumble because I don't rely on those frequencies to tell what notes I'm playing. If anything the Trace V8 I used to have put out too much muddy low end and made hearing myself much more difficult.

I normally let the sound man add low frequencies if thats what the soundcheck needs.

[Guest MoJo]

I have played the same venue with both the BAM210 and the BG250. The BG was the only one of the two to make the women sitting on the bench to the right of the stage go cross-eyed everytime I played an E on the 7th fret of the A string. Obviously not lacking in the air-moving department if it can cause a bench to resonate like that. One for TC Electronics marketing department there.

[JTUK]

Was talking to an amp designer about this very thing yesterday... I relayed a few 'observations' from 'bass world' and he took on board a few
things abouts cab as they/he don't market them as yet.
But he was most interested in the class D thing and he obviously speaks to other amp makers and the conclusion was that marketing plays a huge
part in all this. That, in itself, doesn't make it bad but you get what the driver is. Whether that is right in the pursuit of sound is down to the individual
but his market is gtrs and he doesn't think they will be led by it. They all want lighter weight but not at the expense of their sound.

I wouldn't have to tell him, but gtrs in general are far more discerning and knowledgable and anal than your average bass player about sound.
In fact the bass player may well be lower down that chain than all the other muso's in the band... even than drummers..!!
and IME...I'd agree with that.

[mcnach]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1437385900' post='2825426']
Well, if the one or two (hell, even five) Class D amps which one has tried aren't producing the goods versus the one or two (or even five) Class AB ones one has listened to, then of course it stands to reason that all Class D amps are crap and all Class AB are awesome. QED?
[/quote]

exactly! who needs statistically significant differences, eh?

Precisions used to be rubbish, but in the last couple of years they really have improved the way they make them, because now I like them.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1437388550' post='2825474']
I like Class D a lot, I haven't found any of the Class D amps I've owned lacking in warmth. I don't need to feel rumble because I don't rely on those frequencies to tell what notes I'm playing. If anything the Trace V8 I used to have put out too much muddy low end and made hearing myself much more difficult.

I normally let the sound man add low frequencies if thats what the soundcheck needs.
[/quote]

same here, I actually tend to cut the low lows onstage, otherwise it seems I'm fighting against the bass drum.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1437333356' post='2825151']I think some lightweight amps suffer because they have switch mode power supplies, which are very susceptible to a poor quality mains supply. With no power reservoir, they cannot deal with voltage fluctuation (which is surprisingly common).[/quote]

But switch mode power supplies do have power reservoirs and are actually better at providing a solid stable voltage and current supply than traditional mains frequency transformer power supplies, if appropriately specified.

It isn't the topology that's the issue, it's the execution!