Powered mixer or seperate power amp?

[FuNkShUi]

We are in the process of looking for a new P.A system.
As a 6 piece motown/soul band with keys and a small brass section. We have a good idea of the kind of set up we are going to get. I just wanted to get a few opinions on what you think would work better for us.....
We have about £2500 and are planning on getting two tops and two subs, with two monitors.
The bit im stuck on, because i dont know enough about the subject tbh, is whether to get a powered mixer, or a mixing desk with a seperate power amp.
What are your experiences? What are the benefits/cons?
Is there a different set up you would recommend?
Any advice appreciated.
If this is in the wrong section, feel free to move it.
Thanks

[blockhd]

In my opinion ( personal experience), the less gear the less fuss.... I recommend getting a passive mixer - they come pretty cheap these days. Speakers should be active IMO.

[Iain]

[quote name='blockhd' timestamp='1437381149' post='2825352']
In my opinion ( personal experience), the less gear the less fuss.... I recommend getting a passive mixer - they come pretty cheap these days. Speakers should be active IMO.
[/quote]

This was what I was going to post.

[Huge Hands]

It's a bit personal preference in my experience. The advantage of getting separates is that if you run out of channels and want to upgrade your mixer, you're not necessarily having to shell out for a new amp too. There is also redundancy if your desk fails, you don't lose the amp too, so can just borrow another desk.

However, as the others have said, having integrated kit often saves on space and cabling, so if you think you have everything you need, may be the better option for your circumstances.

EDIT: As the above have said, maybe look for powered speakers and a "passive" desk - this way the amp module in the speaker is likely to be well matched to the cab, and you can change your mixer to your heart's content.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Huge Hands

[BassBunny]

+3
The problem with powered mixers is if you get a problem with the power amp section you have lost the mixer whilst it is being fixed, and vice versa.
Also, and I will stand to be corrected, but most powered mixers are only up to about 500w + 500w, which probably won't cover all eventualities.
Passive mixer and active speakers every time.

[Dad3353]

There is a trade-off in all configurations; none have only advantages. We prefer flexibility and lower cost (better 'bang for buck'..?), and so go for separate elements. Any one element, either through failure or simply unsuitable for the occasion, is easy enough to replace, and, to us, there is no great hassle in cabling such elements. I would recommend a modular approach, as long as there's at least one person with a bit of knowledge (or gumption...). If that knowledge is lacking, then integrated is maybe a safer route, with less opportunity for messing things up.
Just my tuppence-worth.
PS: There is a superb Crest mixing desk for sale in the forum Marketplace; might be worth a look..?

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/250862-crest-audio-24-channel-mixer-just-l300-while-item-im-after-stays-on-ebay"]Crest mixing desk ...[/url]

(I've no affiliation with the seller, obviously...).

[FuNkShUi]

Thanks everyone.
Yeh i have been looking at the mixing desk, but havent pulled the trigger as we havent decided 100% on what we want

[brensabre79]

Get one with a sweepable mid range - it can be extremely useful in some situations to get rid of some nasty feedback (and/or honking on the brass mics especially) - unless you have a big graphic EQ (i.e. 15 - 30, not 6 or 7 bands) and one with built in FX saves you another bit of kit to buy.

[Ghost_Bass]

+1 for passive mixer and active cabs. These days, with class-D and Neo you can get great PA speakers loud enough and not very heavy.

My current PA is a Yamaha passive mixer (MG16/6Fx) going to two active dB Technologies 15" subs and from there we take a x-over out for the active tops (RCF ART312a). Sounds awesome. In the future we'll replace the db's for RCF subs.

[LewisK1975]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1437387842' post='2825460']
Get one with a sweepable mid range - it can be extremely useful in some situations to get rid of some nasty feedback (and/or honking on the brass mics especially) - unless you have a big graphic EQ (i.e. 15 - 30, not 6 or 7 bands) and one with built in FX saves you another bit of kit to buy.
[/quote]

+1 for the passive mixer / powered speakers. Good advice here about the sweepable / semi-parametric mid too. We were having hellish issues with low frequency feedback until we worked out how to use the sweepable mid. Oh the joy of working that one out.

For reference we are using a Behringer mixer - Some people scoff at these but they are really good value for what you get...Mackie subs and JBL tops.

[goblin]

Various different ways of doing it, I've changed my rig to make it easier to carry, lighter, louder, more flexible etc. I'm done with powered desks, they're too heavy if you've having anything of a meaningful size, especially if it's going to be cased, which if in regular use - it needs to be!

Why have two heavier lifts when you can have three lighter lifts? Also much more upgradable if you do that too. I use a passive desk, passive speakers and a class D power amp. The subs I use on the job admittedly are active, just for ease as I don't use them all the time. But I've just gone through huge upgrades whilst the load has become lighter.

The 20 channel desk is passive and digital, and no bigger or heavier than a laptop. The class D 2U poweramp and 1U system controller in a case together is now a one arm lift, instead of two man like it used to be, and that now drives my 4 EV tops, whereas the last amp weighed a tonne and was most comfortable powering two of them.

Personally I reckon that's the most fail safe way of doing it, because everything is interchangeable.

[goblin]

Also consider size too, unless you run a van, then it's not as much of an issue. But I know I can get the entire rig (4 EV SX tops, 2 HK Actor Subs, cased desk, mics, cables etc) into the back of a Passat Estate.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1437382519' post='2825365']
Also, and I will stand to be corrected, but most powered mixers are only up to about 500w + 500w, which probably won't cover all eventualities.
[/quote]

And most of those are rated using various fantasy measures - that "500 watt" mixer amp probably puts out 150 rms on a good day.

Personally I'd only ever use the built in amps for monitors.

Edited July 20, 2015 by bassman7755

[Dad3353]

One shouldn't neglect the cost , though. These modern, lightweight options (and, indeed, digital desks...) are at a quite different price point. For someone whose job it is to run a PA business, there's probably a business case for them, but for an amateur or semi-pro band, the finances may well be quite different. I'm not arguing against active cabs and such; just saying that they're, in general, much more expensive.
Just sayin'.

[FuNkShUi]

A lot of good points to consider.
The size thing isnt so much of an issue as we do have a van. Well, our singer has a van anyway!
I think the digital desk option will be a bit too pricey for us at present, but maybe something we will look at in the future.
What i need is a local expert to show us how best to set up i think..... Anyone here up for the challenge? Wouldn't expect it the service free of charge of course

[Dad3353]

I don't suppose that Lower Normandy counts as 'local', huh..? No; thought not.
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:146269]
Not that I'm exactly an 'expert', either.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Dad3353

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I went from a digital board and separate amps to a powered mixer, this one (RX 1200L), as it does everything I need it to when mixing on stage:
http://carvinaudio.com/collections/rx-series-mixers
A separate board does offer more utility, but if you don't have a soundman running it you probably won't be able to make full use of it.

[Phil Starr]

I'd definitely go for the passive desk/active speakers set up.

You say you are not experts, the big advantage of the active speakers is that designers can closely match the amp to the speakers for you, This improves reliability and if you get DSP built in then you won't overload your speakers so won't have to worry about distortion, or even setting the tone controls to the room with some systems.

Ignore the comments about not getting the quoted power, if you are buying something in this price bracket then most of the class D amps are pretty well designed and will drive the speakers as hard as they can be driven anyway. For sheer sound quality at this price I'd look at the RCF 700 series as the one to beat, The set up Ghost Bass mentions is pretty much what you should be aiming at. You may need more channels if you go out with a lot of brass

Edited July 20, 2015 by Phil Starr

[mrtcat]

Yep Id go active speakers and passive mixer. As Phil Starr says above, RCF do some great stuff. If you're going for RCF I'd advise any of the tops with the number 2 as the middle number (322a, 325a, 722a, 725a etc etc) as these have the 2 inch hf driver which is far smoother at high volume. We picked up a used pair of RCF ART 322a's last year for £260 including the covers and they have been excellent. This sort of buy would leave plenty of budget for decent subs and a decent mixer.

[crez5150]

I think you are going to struggle to get a decent set up for that money.... £2500 for tops subs monitors and mixer is not going very far. You'd be better off trying to get something second hand

[casapete]

+1 for keeping everything separate. More 'upgradeability' when you decide you need to change stuff,
and certainly more s/h bargains to be had whilst everyone rushes for digital desks and active cabs.
Nothing wrong with these of course, just think unless you're buying the upper end of the market stuff
that there is some sacrifice in sound and build quality. As stated, beware of active cabs stating
unrealistic output levels, and try to go for established brands.
Of course, just my opinion etc.....

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1437410456' post='2825760']
You'd be better off trying to get something second hand
[/quote]

Yep, thats the plan.

Thanks everyone for their opinions and experiences. It seems seperates seem the most popular way to go.
I can definitely see the added benefit of being able to upgrade individual parts as and when we need to.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1437380266' post='2825337']
We are in the process of looking for a new P.A system.
As a 6 piece motown/soul band with keys and a small brass section. We have a good idea of the kind of set up we are going to get. I just wanted to get a few opinions on what you think would work better for us.....
We have about £2500 and are planning on getting two tops and two subs, with two monitors.
(...)
[/quote]

If it was me this is what i would be aiming at:



I don't know how many channels you need on the desk, it will depend on the number of channels taken by the drums and vocals but you can get the 20 channel mixer and skimp a bit on the monitor (going for the lower model or even for one with a 8" driver).

It fits your budget and i'll bet you'll be very pleased with the sound this setup can put out

EDIT: this is from Thomann

Edited July 21, 2015 by Ghost_Bass

[6v6]

+1 on active speakers and a passive mixer. This also gives you some redundancy if the monitors are powerful enough to be swapped in as a temporary top should one fail at a gig.

You probably don't really need two subs unless you're playing big venues IMO (you can even get by without any subs IME if the bass is mostly amped via a bass rig and the venues are small e.g pubs).

[keeponehandloose]

Recently aquired Yamaha Mg16xu passive mixer, DXR12 cabs and one Dxs12 sub.
Fantastic sound and within your budget.
Packs big punch for its size.
You may need Mg20 mixer with your line up.