Whatever happened to Rock n roll

[CamdenRob]

There are two parts to it really...

Rock definitely isn't cool anymore, the young regard it as old fashioned, verging on the comical even.

However, there is an vast music audience outside of "the young" who tend to be less influenced by what's regarded as fashionable music and amongst the 50 plus age group (those who actually have the money to go to stadium gigs) rock is as strong as it was when they were in their 20s...

So it's OK for a few years, but when those 50+ become 70+ and paying a fortune to sit in a tiny plastic seat in a freezing cold stadium isn't so appealing then the lack of interest from the younger generation will surely lead to rock fading into obscurity.

[leftybassman392]

If you're serious with the question, you need to be looking for indicators. There's one or two posts in here that have the status of popular mythology, and a whole bunch more that I would classify as anecdotal. Not much by way of actual evidence.

I worked as a guitar (and bass) tutor for many years until around 5 years ago, and for most of that time I had all the students I wanted. Although there were a sprinkling of older students, the vast majority of them were kids (which is surely where the next generation of musicians - if there is to be one - will come from). It's true that they did drop off a little bit towards the end, but I rather suspect that it was more a case of not wanting to be taught by some doddery old fart than anything else. If you want to know how the future of guitar-based music looks, ask the people who teach it.

I don't know the answer by the way, just offering a suggestion as to where we might start looking for it. For what it may be worth, and from my personal perspective, it still seemed to be in pretty good shape a few years ago. I wouldn't write it off just yet...

There's a thread running elsewhere about a series called 'Guitar Star' on Sky Arts, and if the number of applications they received is anything to go by then there's still plenty of guitarists out there. One of the four semi-finalists is 13 (not a great guitar player as it happens but all the same...), and a second is 15 (a classical player as it happens, but all the same...).

Music evolves; it doesn't go away. Popular music has been with us in one form or another for thousands of years; predicting it's decline and downfall within a single generation strikes me as a bit presumptuous. The details will change but I don't think it'll be going anywhere any time soon. As to whether it'll still be played on guitars, well that's a slightly different question. As I said, ask the people who teach it.

Here endeth the lecture.

Edited July 27, 2015 by leftybassman392

[mentalextra]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1438002891' post='2830700']
............. 'Rock' has lasted longer in the public than any other musical genre (save perhaps music hall / musical theatre 1840-1955).
[/quote]

What about Jazz?

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='mentalextra' timestamp='1438005812' post='2830742']
What about Jazz?
[/quote]

Jazz? 1912-1960? So, about 48 years as a mass-market popular form. If rock were to have lasted as long as Jazz it should have dropped off the twig and gone minority interest in 1996.

Some might say rock died in 1969; or 1977; or when Elvis went into the army. Who can really say? Either way, rock (as we know it) is pretty much dead and I'm only interested in what's going to come next, always provided us crinkly middle-aged men get the f**k out of the way of progress.

Edited July 27, 2015 by skankdelvar

[Twincam]

My opinion is that these days there is so many things to do that Every genre in music is not as big as it could be. People have so many forms of entertainment etc that just learning to play an instrument gets in the way. And if someone does Lear an instrument there going to be mainly influenced by the music of there time.

And I see a need for big and old rock and roll bands to retire, it makes it look like music for old duffers. What's left of say the who play Glastonbury was cool to a degree but to a degree its also a load of old geezers on stage.

[LayDownThaFunk]

Is there anyone under 25 in this thread?! Rock is really not dead. It might be for you because you're oldddd.

[PaulWarning]

I would say Rock n Roll ended in the early sixties, it then evolved into just Rock which is a much broader church, but a snare off beat seems to be a common facter.
Are One Direction rock? some of it, I think the Monkees were and Busted as well

[mentalextra]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1438006365' post='2830751']
Jazz? 1912-1960? So, about 48 years as a mass-market popular form. If rock were to have lasted as long as Jazz it should have dropped off the twig and gone minority interest in 1996.

Some might say rock died in 1969; or 1977; or when Elvis went into the army. Who can really say? Either way, rock (as we know it) is pretty much dead and I'm only interested in what's going to come next, always provided us crinkly middle-aged men get the f**k out of the way of progress.
[/quote]

Young men don't "stick it to the man" with rock any more, they use youtube And I'm surprised nobody has challenged your comment on jazz dying in 1960, [i]Weather report [/i]would strongly disagree with you!

Edited July 27, 2015 by mentalextra

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='mentalextra' timestamp='1438021769' post='2830970']
And I'm surprised nobody has challenged your comment on jazz dying in 1960!
[/quote]

That's because my contention is irrefutable (in the sense that Jazz died as a mass market thing, getting played on daytime radio, ordinary people dancing to it, buying singles, etc).

Blues went the same way about 15 years ago. Now it's all old codgers with grey chest-wigs and Marshall baseball caps sitting around stroking their chins and comparing Walter Trout unfavourably to Big Bill Broonzy and reciting Chess catalogue numbers to each other over a pint of Adnams'.

The Blues problem is exacerbated by the continuing and inexplicable survival of Paul Jones on the BBC Blues show. He sounds more like Desmond Carrington than the Desmeister himself and cdrtainly less animated. You can hear Jones' false teeth flapping away as he unveils his thoughts on the latest release from Blind Bob Badger:

'...and here's a number from the album I particularly like. Ted Blither Jr on bass, Sticks Hamilton-Watt on drums and Dave Racoon on the lickin' stick. The album was recorded at ... produced by ... Howling Wolf's nephew dropped by ... really quite remarkable... (flap flap flap)'

Frankly, the only two vaguely related genres round here that seem to pull normal punters (as opposed to geriatric obsessives and their ghastly wives) is 'acoustic' and 'alt-country / Americana. At least you get a few chickies turn out for that.

Edited July 27, 2015 by skankdelvar

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='mentalextra' timestamp='1438021769' post='2830970']
Young men don't "stick it to the man" with rock any more, they use youtube And I'm surprised nobody has challenged your comment on jazz dying in 1960, [i]Weather report [/i]would strongly disagree with you!
[/quote]as somebody said earlier trends don't die altogether, there's always at least a small demand for any style (witness Morris Dancing, although that might have something to do with the fact it always seems to take place in a pub car park) and the occasional renaissance, I seem to remember Glen Miller getting popular again for a short while in the 70's

Edited July 27, 2015 by PaulWarning

[timmo]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1438022380' post='2830981']
I seem to remember Glen Miller getting popular again for a short while in the 70's
[/quote] I think you need to be in the mood for that type of music

[blue]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1437819949' post='2829264']
glad it wasn't just me then, I am getting on in years but I do try and avoid "it's not like it used to be" statement[/quote]

Even though it's not like it use to be I also try and stay away from that statement to. I do wish some of the younger folks has a better idea and insight to how things were back in the 60s and 70s.

Blue

Edited July 28, 2015 by blue

[Spoombung]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1438002891' post='2830700']
The death of Rock and Roll may be attributed to a number of factors:

* Over supply at both the local and global level

* The tameness and predictability of the content and presentation at all levels when compared to other musical genres

* The natural entropy of any popular artistic form

* Ageing core audience with a diminishing number of 'new' entrants.

* The wide availability of alternative forms of entertainment or distraction including - but not limited to - the internet, TV, games, all of which provide the secondary function of identity-building and group involvement as previously supplied by Rock.


'Rock' has lasted longer in the public eye than any other musical genre (save perhaps music hall / musical theatre 1840-1955). It is unsurprising that Rock is on its last legs; then again, so am I so its not a problem for me.
[color=#ffffff].[/color]
[/quote]

Perfect analysis!

[tauzero]

I'm unclear about the subject of the question. Rock and roll as in Teds with a supertanker of hair gel on doing strange dances in blue suede shoes, or rock and roll as in rock, the all-encompassing popular (and loud) beat combo music? While Minus Zero doesn't go to the pub to watch bands (not even us), he does have an iPhone full to overflowing with music, of the modern rock variety (eg. Slipknot and Lacuna Coil) and he's been to a couple of festivals. The youth of today are still listening, it's more that they don't go down the pub but choose to stay in playing on their PlayBoxes and xStation 3s.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1438088213' post='2831517']
I'm unclear about the subject of the question. Rock and roll as in Teds with a supertanker of hair gel on doing strange dances in blue suede shoes, or rock and roll as in rock, the all-encompassing popular (and loud) beat combo music? While Minus Zero doesn't go to the pub to watch bands (not even us), he does have an iPhone full to overflowing with music, of the modern rock variety (eg. Slipknot and Lacuna Coil) and he's been to a couple of festivals. The youth of today are still listening, it's more that they don't go down the pub but choose to stay in playing on their PlayBoxes and xStation 3s.
[/quote]in my view, Rock n Roll is the stuff the Teds and the late 1950's is associated with the rest is Rock or Rock and Roll. IMO the BBC's rubbish programme should have been called 'Whatever Happened to Rock and Roll', they couldn't even get the title right

[Old Man Riva]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1438088213' post='2831517']
I'm unclear about the subject of the question. Rock and roll as in Teds with a supertanker of hair gel on doing strange dances in blue suede shoes, or rock and roll as in rock, the all-encompassing popular (and loud) beat combo music?[/quote]
That was the problem with the programme... they weren't clear to what they were referring to when talking about rock 'n' roll - was it the original sound, the spirit, the look, the attitude etc.

I think Eric Burdon would see anything that didn't sound like Chuck Berry or Little Richard as not being rock 'n' roll.. whereas the programme featured Foo Fighters, Noel Gallagher and the Young Fathers as "rock 'n' roll".

[blue]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1438088213' post='2831517']
I'm unclear about the subject of the question. Rock and roll as in Teds with a supertanker of hair gel on doing strange dances in blue suede shoes, or rock and roll as in rock, the all-encompassing popular (and loud) beat combo music? While Minus Zero doesn't go to the pub to watch bands (not even us), he does have an iPhone full to overflowing with music, of the modern rock variety (eg. Slipknot and Lacuna Coil) and he's been to a couple of festivals. The youth of today are still listening, it's more that they don't go down the pub but choose to stay in playing on their PlayBoxes and xStation 3s.
[/quote]

Agreed but rock doesn't happen on Youtube or on an iPhone. Doesn't matter, I don't think the younger generations know what "Rock" is , no matter how you define it. You'll never convince me they do.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='Old Man Riva' timestamp='1438089761' post='2831542']
That was the problem with the programme... they weren't clear to what they were referring to when talking about rock 'n' roll - was it the original sound, the spirit, the look, the attitude etc.

I think Eric Burdon would see anything that didn't sound like Chuck Berry or Little Richard as not being rock 'n' roll.. whereas the programme featured Foo Fighters, Noel Gallagher and the Young Fathers as "rock 'n' roll".
[/quote]

I agree with Eric.

Blue

[tauzero]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1438134372' post='2831989']
Agreed but rock doesn't happen on Youtube or on an iPhone. Doesn't matter, I don't think the younger generations know what "Rock" is , no matter how you define it. You'll never convince me they do.
[/quote]

Don't worry, I'm not going to bother trying.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1438134372' post='2831989']
I don't think the younger generations know what "Rock" is , no matter how you define it. You'll never convince me they do.
[/quote]

I think they know what it is... they just have no interest in it.

[blue]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1438162787' post='2832121']
I think they know what it is... they just have no interest in it.
[/quote]

Now that I will agree with. When 20 somethings walk in on one of our gigs ( we do 70s hard rock & blues ) they leave immediately. That's ok, we have enough of an over 50 crowd to support the band. We don't need them.

Blue

[Lord Sausage]

I'm 36. I've got brothers aged in their early 20's. Both musicians. One lives near me in the north west. One in Sheffield. They both love rock music, play in bands. When I go to their gigs or jam nights there are loads of people in their age group there. They play more modern stuff but still play classic rock to. Everyone seems to know it and love it. You teens round here in guns n roses, nirvana, Acdc tops. More than when I was a teenager in the 90s when all the kids were into rave and dance.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1438307317' post='2833483']
Now that I will agree with. When 20 somethings walk in on one of our gigs ( we do 70s hard rock & blues ) they leave immediately. That's ok, we have enough of an over 50 crowd to support the band. We don't need them.

Blue
[/quote]

I think that's the important thing to remember There is a whole world of music enthusiasts outside of "the young" (who generally listent to what ever the "in" music of the day is). The over 30s,40s and 50s are still a large market and also a market that can afford to go out and watch gigs and buy beer (which will keep the landlords booking bands). Whilst the young may find rock music old fashioned and amusing, for the over 40s / 50s Rock is alive and kicking and those are the guys that actually go to gigs...

So Rock may not be relevent as fresh new sound, it may not be cool, it may even be ridiculed by the vlogger and man bun generation, but it's not dead as long as those who remember it when it happened are going to gigs... It might fade away when those people people get older and lose interest in going out to gigs, bu for the time being nothing fills the Dog and Duck like rock covers.

Edited July 31, 2015 by CamdenRob

[PaulWarning]

it's old farts playing that the young aren't interested in, they want to see bands of their own age group playing, understandable

[KevB]

Some bands can span the generations though. There have been Deep Purple gigs I've been to over the last several years where you can see 3 generations of the family at the same gig and the grandchild hasn't looked remotely like they were there under sufference, appear to be genuinely enjoying it. Plenty of under 30's at some of the rock nights I occasionally go to when I'm not gigging. I don't recognise half the bands they play, but it's definitely heavy rock and the audience are into it. Guess it's just become a bit more of a niche thing again rather than mainstream, but then it was a fairly defined younger audience for rock'n'roll in the 50's too.