fretless Bass Tuning

[bonnp]

Hi, A guy came to look at my fretless 5 string today but decided not to buy as felt could not get it in tune, especially the higher he went. He was a really nice guy but said he had been playing the same bass for 20 years so maybe a fretless is not for him or could be a problem with the bass.Tried tuning on a mobile for ages making adjustments but was not happy when moved an octave on.Worried about this i took the bass to a luthier close to me who had a look for me, he was really impressed with it, really straight neck, condition and said the setup looked fine after slight adjustmets.Only thing he said was out, was the saddle, especially on the D string and another string was slapping a wee bit on the ramp so adjusted that string as well. tuned the strings and he said sounded spot on. glad as i nearly gave it away. Guy who came was not experienced in playing a fretless but from what i have read, is it a case of fingering the fret board when playing to hear the right notes rather than playing exactly the middle of each fret expecting it to sound perfect etc?
Anyone have good experience of playing one?
.

[zero9]

Just like it's fretted counterpart, a fretless needs to be correctly tuned. If the saddles are not in the right position, tuning will be out as you move higher up the neck. Obviously you can compensate for this on a fretless, but it will make it much harder to play in tune, if the intonation is not where you expect it to be. Check the harmonic at the 12th fret position against the fingered ('fretted') note. These should both be in tune.

When you play a note on a fretless with your finger perpendicular to the board, you can go from slightly flat to sharp by slightly rolling your finger back and forth, if that makes sense.

Edited July 25, 2015 by zero9

[alyctes]

Intonation is important on fretlesses.

Yes, the note you get comes from the finger position (just like a cello or DB).

[HowieBass]

I bought a fretless bass off eBay (my Cort B4FL) and it wouldn't intonate correctly based on the side dots - even with the saddles wound all the way back (essentially the E being the main problem). Since this was/is my first and only fretless I decided to reposition the bridge a few millimetres further back to give me enough saddle adjustment in order to get the harmonics ringing out at all the right positions (up to and including the 24th 'fret'/side dot position). Plus, the bridge was slightly off kilter anyway which was bugging me. I think it's worth getting a fretless correctly intonated to match the side dots - even more so if it's a lined board - yes you can get the right notes by ear but if new to playing without the benefit of frets I think you might as well give yourself all the help you can.

[Roger2611]

The problem with trying to play by eye on a fretless is that as you look down on the strings it gives you the wrong perspective, I have never played a fretless where I can look down at the dot and find the guitar is in tune across all 4/5 strings, the key to a fretless is playing by ear, you slide into the correct position, trying to do it by eye will never work, I have always had unlined finger boards, I have played a few lined fretlesses and found the fret lines helped a bit but playing by ear is the key

[Dad3353]

I, too, find the notion of intonation a bit strange, concerning fretless. One can (and, imo, should...) ignore the dots or lines, if, indeed, there are any, and play by ear. It can be helpful to have the octave in about the same position on all strings, but even then, a bit of experience and listening will sort out any slight discrepancy. I try to keep my fingering in tune by comparing to harmonics rather than any markings there may be. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

[HowieBass]

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1437853788' post='2829571']
The problem with trying to play by eye on a fretless is that as you look down on the strings it gives you the wrong perspective, I have never played a fretless where I can look down at the dot and find the guitar is in tune across all 4/5 strings, the key to a fretless is playing by ear, you slide into the correct position, trying to do it by eye will never work, I have always had unlined finger boards, I have played a few lined fretlesses and found the fret lines helped a bit but playing by ear is the key
[/quote]

If you had a lined board and it WAS correctly intonated wouldn't it be in tune right across the lines though? The side dots help me, I am pretty good with perspective so I know where a fret/fret line would be in relation to the side dot and it helps me get pretty close to the right note - yes you can slide when playing slowly and I know that part of the sound of a fretless is that it's not always bang on exactly in tune hence the character of the sound, slides or no slides. Trying to do it by eye doesn't work for you but please don't claim it 'will never work' because I don't believe that's true - shouldn't we say each to their own? If a bass has lines or side dots you can just not look at them if you choose to play solely by ear but others find them helpful.

[Roger2611]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1437865224' post='2829679']
If you had a lined board and it WAS correctly intonated wouldn't it be in tune right across the lines though? The side dots help me, I am pretty good with perspective so I know where a fret/fret line would be in relation to the side dot and it helps me get pretty close to the right note - yes you can slide when playing slowly and I know that part of the sound of a fretless is that it's not always bang on exactly in tune hence the character of the sound, slides or no slides. Trying to do it by eye doesn't work for you but please don't claim it 'will never work' because I don't believe that's true - shouldn't we say each to their own? If a bass has lines or side dots you can just not look at them if you choose to play solely by ear but others find them helpful.
[/quote]

Sorry, just offering an opinion based on years of playing fretless!

[ezbass]

None other than Gary Willis says that fingering a fretless beyond the 12th 'fret' should visually be a bit on the flat side (for a lined board). This is, I guess, down to fatness of a fingertip in relation to the space available. FWIW I recently fitted flat wounds to my GWB35 and I could get spot on intonation on the E-G strings (I used a pick edge for precise positioning), but the B string couldn't be intonated totally accurately at all. Some strings are just not quite 'right', just ask Roger Sadowsky (he reckons lots of string are just plain duff). Using dots or lines for position is just fine, but shouldn't be regarded as the be and end all, ears have to be used too.

[ead]

I set the intonation on mine with a credit card edge. Since muscle memory also plays a significant part along with the Mk1 ears for me personally have the bass set like my fretted basses helps. No need to make things any hader than necessary?

[KevB]

Obviously have to be careful with that old 'dots/fret positions' business with fretless boards. Convention usually is the side dots are where the frets would be on an equivalent fretted instruments rather than the dots between the frets. All well and good but then you can buy a fretless that started out as a fretted instrument and unless they've been repositioned the side dots are still where they would be on the fretted instrument and not where they would be on a neck that was always fretless from the outset. It still catches people out.

[tauzero]

Lined fretless - dots are between the lines. Except on my Sei because I had them moved.

Unlined fretless - could be either. My Harley Benton acoustic has them between where the frets would be. In the past I've had unlined with the dots where the frets would be, and unlined with dots between the unfrets.

[BigRedX]

Side dots can be a problem on cheaper fretless basses as they are often positioned in the same place as they would be on a fretted bass - in-between the "frets" and therefore aren't where you would expect them to be.

The easiest way to check the positing of the dots is to measure from the nut to where the "12th fret" dot is. If the dot is on the "fret line" it will be 17". If the dot is between the "frets" it will be 16.5"

Of course the dots and lines are just a guide and you should always pitch your notes by ear. I never bother to set up my intonation as accurately on my fretless basses as I would on my fretted ones. So long as I'm within 10 cents when my finger is fretting just behind the harmonic point at the octave it's good enough for me.

[HazBeen]

Top tip, if you set intonation use a tooth pick beneath the string, in essence creating a temporary fret, makes life a lot easier as you have use of 2 hands.

[The Funk]

A tip I read somewhere on here years ago was to get a fretless that is more or less the same model as your fretted, so that you know where all the notes more or less are without having to look. You would have to adjust the position of your fingers slightly to be in tune but even my bad ears could hear if I'm flat or sharp so I can then compensate.

[JoeEvans]

You can use a knife edge or some other thin flat object to check that the harmonics are all exactly lined up across the strings; that's about as far as you need to go regarding the intonation, as long as it't not a lined fretless.