MarkW Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Hi all A quick forum search didn't turn up what I was looking for, but if this has already been covered just point me in the right direction... Our band regularly struggles from monitoring problems. More specifically, only the keyboard player and the singer have any sort of monitor, and in both cases they are old and clapped-out practice amps that are being used for a function they were not designed for. Half the time the guitarist can't hear anything except the drums, I can't usually hear the singer or much of the guitarist, and there is also the ever-present danger of horrific feedback due to the general crapness of our set-up. I can't help thinking we'd be better off if we just bit the bullet and bought a few proper floor monitors, but this isn't something I know the first thing about. I've seen active and passive versions (no idea what the implications of either are) and various suggested set-ups for a five-piece band. Do we need one for each person, or just a couple strategically placed so that everyone hears more or less the same thing? Any advice would be massively appreciated, and especially if anyone can suggest a decent budget set-up! Cheers guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Mark... Just to complete your request for information and tips, can you indicate how many independant Aux sends are on your mixing desk..? In other words, how many different monitor mixes are you wanting to work with..? The singer's needs are probably different from those of the heys player, the drummer, too will want another mix. The simple way is to have only one monitor mix and send that to all, but does that solve your problems..? What desk are you using..? This will help to give the best reply... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkW Posted July 26, 2015 Author Share Posted July 26, 2015 Hi Douglas It's a Mackie DL1608, which apparently has eight outputs. A single mix sent to each of us would be a massive improvement on what we've got at the moment, but if there are other options that might work better I'm all ears! Another thing I was wondering about is that we currently only send drums, keyboards and vocals through the PA, with guitar and bass going through our own amps. If everyone sends a line to the desk to be in the monitor mix, had we may as well all go through the PA or are there benefits in keeping things a bit more separate? Apologies for the noddy questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) [quote name='MarkW' timestamp='1437923751' post='2830019']... It's a Mackie DL1608, which apparently has eight outputs... [/quote] Mark... There are 6 o/p usable for monitoring (you need 2 at least for FOH, for the public..!), which means that if you go for active monitors, you can each have your own mix. With passives, you can have as many mixes as monitor amps, up to maximum of 6. Drums..? Check. Keys..? Check (mono monitoring...). Vocals..? How many..? Lead, of course, but who else sings..? Any of these 'feeds' can go into any of the monitor mixes; stuff not fed into the mixer obviously can't. Does anyone need to monitor guitar (the drummer, for example..?) or the bass..? If so, they could be fed into the mixer; they don't necessarily have to go to FOH, though. Just a trickle, enough to keep the drummer locked in to bass/guitar could be good. Each player should have some idea of what is required; the size and disposition of your gig venues will be a factor, too. A festival stage and a small pub gig don't have the same requirements. The most flexible would maybe to have as many active monitors as group members, each with a separate mix, and take it from there. That would already be an enormous leap up from your present set-up. Doesn't have to be floor monitors, either. There are models which can go on a mic. stand, for instance, taking up less floor 'real estate', or even a headphone amp and headset for the drummer. Hope this helps; others will have other views, too... Edited July 26, 2015 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Active monitors are pretty convenient Imo. We picked up some used Mackie SRM450s used off Gumtree and they are perfect and serve as a usable backup for foh tops should we ever have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyf Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Why not go IEM? Rather than spend the money on the monitors, invest in some inears (Shure do some good budget ones in the 215s, 425s and 535s) and the transmitters. Good cost effective stuff from LD Systems. The number of outs on the Mackie would mean you could easily get your own mixes. Plus, not only great monitoring but you're not lugging huge wedges around. Calling EBS_Freak for more expert help...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Hi, Dad has been giving you great advice, mine might be slightly different but it is probably due to different interpretations of your needs. You start off asking for budget monitors. What is your budget? The Mackie speakers are pretty ideal but woudnt fit my budget. Your questions are good by the way. A fully mixed sound is ultimately the best way to get the best sound off and on stage, as are separate monitor mixes, but expensive and complex to set up. I'm imagining you are a pub band moving from one venue to another and playing in a few cramped and sometimes difficult spaces. It is often simpler and cheaper to use a back line of individual instrument amps and a front line of wedge monitors feeding mainly vocals but adding in anything else that might be getting lost. You mention feedback and not being able to hear yourselves. The first thing is to see if you can turn down. When the levels are high your ears protect themselves by restricting the vibrations going through to the inner ear which would get damaged. Turning down lets more detail through. I'm a little surprised you are micing the drums by the way if you are drowning out the guitars. The second free trick is to rearrange your back line. The amps are all really directional, much louder when you point them straight at you. Imagine a torch strapped to the front of the cab. To hear anything you need to be in the light from the beam. I'll bet the guitarist is pointing his amp at the back of his knees and not at his ears. Lift it on to a stand and angle it and that should solve some of the problems. Let us know your budget first of all. Then we can give more detailed advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkW Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 Thanks guys - lots of good advice here. Phil, I had to smile when you mentioned turning down to get a better mix: the instinct in our band is to turn up the things we can't hear rather than turning down the things that are too loud, and it's infuriating. Whenever my bass needs more punch I usually start by cutting the lowest frequencies on the EQ before I start boosting anything or turning the volume up, and that seems to work pretty well. Regarding the drums, we only mic the bass drum, because this has a tendency to disappear a bit - the rest of the kit is acoustic. I'm very interested in the IEM suggestion, for several reasons. Firstly there are the obvious size/transport/storage benefits over floor monitors. Then there's the fact that we wouldn't be adding to the already considerable on-stage volume, or introducing potential new feedback problems with additional speakers. Our drummer is very keen on this approach and has apparently used it before in other bands, but our keyboard player says he struggles with IEM for some reason. Not sure why. Budget-wise, we've probably got around £600 to play with. :-) Cheers Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casapete Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Recently heard some Alto SXM112A floor monitors, well impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 [quote name='MarkW' timestamp='1438001288' post='2830673']... I'm very interested in the IEM suggestion... [/quote] Mark... The cheapest wireless set from Thomann able to support 4 sets at once on stage would be these ... [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_iem_100_863_mhz.htm"]Wireless IEM, Thomann ...[/url] ... at £124 a throw. Drums and keys could probably get away with a wired system; that would start at between .£50-£100, depending on the quality chosen. Here's a link to the BC 'reference' topic on the subject (12 pages and growing..!) ... [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/205633-in-ear-monitors-help-needed/"]IEM advice wanted ...[/url] ... in which our very own EBS_Freak expounds with authority and experience. Probably worth perusal. IEM is a big step, not to be taken lightly. The benefits are enormous, but so are the traps and downsides. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) The biggest problem with IEMs is often the feeling of being cut off from the band/audience. I've no experience of gigging with them so I'm keeping out of that one, others will give much better advice. For £600 you should be able to achieve something sensible with wedges, both with new or high quality used. Given that turning down is the most sensible thing. You are either looking at dedicated wedge monitors or using PA speakers. Either way I'd go for actives. Using PA speakers can work well if your PA fails as they can be swapped in. Wedges usually point in the direction you want without fiddling and the controls are usually on the front, which helps if you are doing your own sound. As far as sound goes there shouldn't be too much difference. We've recently spent a similar sum on monitors. I've two wharfedale Titan 12's for the instruments and backing vocalists and a Behringer 1320 wedge for the main vocals. The Behringer sounds fantastic for the price, just a little too bassy but otherwise excellent. It's loud enough that feedback rather than volume is the limiting factor. The Titans sound great at low volumes and go very loud but the bass makes the cheap plastic cab rattle like mad so I woulnt recommend them for keys. I wouldn't really recommend them but I picked them up for £130ea and couldn't resist. The Wharfedale EVPs are worth a look though Depends upon how you feel about Behringer I suppose. I've always had no trouble with them and they sound much better than the alto's mentioned. Most gigs we just have the Behringer as the only monitor with just a vocal mix. The drummer sometimes has one of the Wharfedales as a monitor. You could try one 1320 and then replace your existing monitors if you like them. If you are happy with used then most of the EV and JBL PA speakers have a 45 degree tilt back angle which works well. We also use three personal monitors for the vocals. These are great but aren't loud enough for the rest of the band to hear. Edited July 27, 2015 by Phil Starr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The easiest way to use IEMs and not feel cut off from the band/audience is use an ambient mic. Experiment with position and have as much or as little as you like in your ears. Much better than going deaf for the sake of some pub shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1438030609' post='2831105'] The easiest way to use IEMs and not feel cut off from the band/audience is use an ambient mic. Experiment with position and have as much or as little as you like in your ears. Much better than going deaf for the sake of some pub shows. [/quote] Just to make it clear; this is good advice. I probably should be using IEMs too but I'm not in a position to advise on something I haven't used. I have used a range of floor monitors and I can offer an opinion on these. Your budget won't cover the top quality stuff which is why I am pointing you in the direction of cheap but functional floor wedges. Edited July 29, 2015 by Phil Starr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
41.2Hz Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 We've just invested in 4 of these [url="http://www.laney.co.uk/products/product_details/41"]http://www.laney.co.uk/products/product_details/41[/url] (the standard market price seems to be £230 each at the moment). They can be daisy-chained, either using the powered signal to slave monitors, or using the pre-amped signal to another powered monitor. We're running then using the 2nd configuration, so that we only need 2 output channels from the desk, and the stage volumes can be changed for each individual monitor on the fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehux Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I tried IEM's and didn't get on with them, for the 'isolation' reasons stated earlier. I use a Behinger F1120A active floor monitor and can't fault it for the money (about £150-£160) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassfunk Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I use IEMs that are hard wired. I take an Aux to a mini desk or headphoe amp on top of my amp. Then I've used a headphone extension cable taped to my Jack to Jack. I run the IEM cable down my back (I normally wear a waistoat when gigging and plug in were my lead passed through my strap. £75 for the Sure SE215s + £5 for the bits and I had an old little desk lying around. IEM for under £100. Some of the guys in the band don't use IEM so we have Mackie SRM450s for the vox and I own 3 of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WHARFEDALE-PRO-EVP-X-12M-WEDGE-FLOOR-MONITOR-EXCELLENT-PERFECT-WORKING-ORDER-/171869889703 The Wharefedales are cheap and perfectly fine. You can pick them up reasonably cheaply to 2nd hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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