The Beatles Curse

[EssentialTension]

[media]http://youtu.be/gJxvm5zbeBc[/media]

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1441192647' post='2856768']
I still don't think something spreading via social media over a day or two in this intensively colourful world could have anything near the effect of The Beatles exploding out of pretty much everyone's TV sets in a relatively dour, black and white world.
[/quote]

I think it could, but can't imagine what such a revolution would be (or I would do it myself).

Minecraft is a good example. I'm not sure that it will develop and lead through the years, but there is something there.

If you look at how quickly fairly mindless things spread across the internet (e.g. Japanese lessons with Miss Hannah Minx), something revolutionary that spread that quick could make a big impact.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Annoying Twit

[operative451]

I don't know about all this 'you don't know man, you weren't there' malarkey. I mean, it sounds a lot like the first time i heard 'Let it Go'...

[EssentialTension]

It seems, oddly, that McCartney didn't get it even though he was there. Talking about the [url="https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=The+Night+That+Changed+America%3A+A+Grammy+Salute+To+The+Beatles"][i]The Night That Changed America: A Grammy Salute To The Beatles[/i][/url],McCartney said:

[quote] "At first when I was asked to do the show, I was wondering if it was the right thing to do. Was it seemly to tribute yourself? But I saw a couple of American guys who said to me, 'You don't understand the impact of that appearance on the show on America.' I didn't realize that." [url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/28/grammys-beatles-salute_n_4679512.html"]Source[/url][/quote]

It appears that being there wasn't enough. This is a USAdian experience and is not merely about age. I was 12 but I wasn't there because I was watching Sunday Night at the London Palladium instead ... and Thank Your Lucky Stars and Ready Steady Go etc.

[skankdelvar]

I mean, it's all very well saying 'But what about the epiphany I had when I saw the Housemartins at the Piper Club in Hull in 19-er-something? That's valid!'

Well, yes, one's epiphanies and experiences are always valid. But when considered in a historical context it's like the difference between World War 2 and the Falklands conflict. It is not a question of validity. It is a question of scale and scope.

Tie this in with the social possibilities inherent to a disruption of The American Way and you can see why the establishment and the counter-culture alike saw the Beatles as a Big Thing. See below - FBI file from August 1964 detailing Beatles concert appearance as '[i]a perfect vehicle for riots if racial elements or organisation subversive or otherwise were to capitalise on this vehicle[/i]'. And that's even before things got really trippy and anti-war:

[blue]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1441215613' post='2857037']
I don't know about all this 'you don't know man, you weren't there' malarkey. I mean, it sounds a lot like the first time i heard 'Let it Go'...
[/quote]

Unfortunately, it just means you don't get it. Not the worse thing in the world, it's just the way it is.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1441185385' post='2856668']
Horace's influences lay in the Jamaican [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ska"]ska[/url] artists such Prince Buster. I'm not sure where the Beatles fit in there.
And to the best of my knowledge, John Lennon did not invent the protest song.

Look, I know you're not talking about [u]a[/u] record or [u]a[/u] show. Neither am I. But can you [i]please[/i] understand that for many people, the introduction to a different way of life and opening of eyes and so on might, just [i]might[/i], have had nothing to do with the Beatles?
And can you please accept that while our epiphanies may not have been as genuinely world-changing as yours, they are just as [u]personally[/u] valuable? I can well understand that the world really did actually change when four Scousers stepped off a plane in 1964 or whenever, but for me it happened on Top of the Pops one night in 1979 when Madness, The Specials and The Selecter introduced me to a new way of life.
[/quote]

I wouldn't trade or compare my Beatles experience for Madness, The Specials or The Selecter ( all great bands mind you)

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1441192285' post='2856761']
I'd agree that the Beatles were a unique cultural and social phenomenon which does not invite direct comparison with anything before or since, I can see that even as someone born in 1981. What I'm less keen on is the suggestion that exposure to that somehow makes anyone who was a certain age in a certain place at a certain time inherently wiser, more insightful and all-around [i]better[/i] than the rest of us.
[/quote]

I would say it does make us more insightful, but in no way any wiser or better than anyone for any reason.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1441189925' post='2856726']
Because you're unlikely to get most of the population watching a single YouTube clip for the first time simultaneously.
[/quote]

Love the response Wateroftyne.

And remember it was live TV.

Blue

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441232619' post='2857210']
I mean, it's all very well saying 'But what about the epiphany I had when I saw the Housemartins at the Piper Club in Hull in 19-er-something? That's valid!'

Well, yes, one's epiphanies and experiences are always valid. But when considered in a historical context it's like the difference between World War 2 and the Falklands conflict. It is not a question of validity. It is a question of scale and scope.

Tie this in with the social possibilities inherent to a disruption of The American Way and you can see why the establishment and the counter-culture alike saw the Beatles as a Big Thing. See below - FBI file from August 1964 detailing Beatles concert appearance as '[i]a perfect vehicle for riots if racial elements or organisation subversive or otherwise were to capitalise on this vehicle[/i]'. And that's even before things got really trippy and anti-war:



[/quote]

Maybe, but I imagine the FBI would be making reports about anything happening on their patch. I'm not saying it's insignificant, but I wonder how many memos about racial and subversive elements were made that week.
They've certainly not been the only act to be subject to dark forces. I'd be interested in what the FBI had on Elvis before and who can forget this gem from our own lot after;

Edited September 3, 2015 by Billy Apple

[Rich]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1441240902' post='2857247']
I wouldn't trade or compare my Beatles experience for Madness, The Specials or The Selecter ( all great bands mind you)
Blue
[/quote]
I'm not asking you to trade -- I wouldn't -- and I'm definitely not trying to compare. That.is.my.whole.point. It's not supposed to be a p*ssing contest to see who's got the biggest experience.
I appear to be having trouble getting my point across.

[Annoying Twit]

How much of an effect something has on you depends not only what is causing the effect, but also the state of mind (e.g. age) of the person being effected. Once you've heard a lot of music, it's more difficult to find something new that's a real mind-opener.

This I think is leading to the 'ground-shakingness' of experiences that occurred when the poster (and their peer group) was at their most receptive age being over-estimated, and experiences that happened when they were much less receptive due to age, experience, knowledge being excessively discounted. As it seems to be a pattern in this thread that points are being misunderstood, I'll point out that I'm not saying that there has been something as 'big' as The Beatles since then, just that the relative magnitude is being (honestly I believe) misrepresented.

I'm sure that there were/are Jazz aficionados who were quite bored by The Beatles and wondered what all the fuss was about, just as there are Beatles aficionados who discount rap music and see nothing of note in seminal artists and works in that genre. Hence, it could be said that many Beatles fans 'don't get it' and 'had to be there' in terms of breakthroughs in rap, hip-hop, dance, electronic music, etc.

It is interesting that the Ed Sullivan Show is being described as the breakthrough. The Beatles had already had hits and released albums at that time, so Ed's show wasn't particularly important for British fans, only for those in the USA who weren't familiar. This, I believe, shows how the context of the listener is important in terms of how important experiences were in shaping people.

I understand how people treasure these moments and memories, when their mind was expanded. However, it seems that this is happening at the cost of devaluing the experiences of others who were around at a different time.

Note: I am personally a big Beatles fan who as a teenager had his record collection divided into Beatles (incl. solo) and non-Beatles sections.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Annoying Twit

[cheddatom]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1441241246' post='2857248']
I would say it does make us more insightful, but in no way any wiser or better than anyone for any reason.

Blue
[/quote]

If you're more insightful, then in a way, you are better

I can accept that being a young american in the 60s was a unique experience, and the change that grew from this was definitely massive. If you want to attribute all that to the beatles, I think it could be debated, but you have some strong points. However, your generation, on average, are no more or less "insightful" than any other generation.

[the boy]

This is getting a bit "am too" followed by "are not" followed by "am too" and then "are not". Let's simply say that blue thinks the Beatles are awesome and move on because other "am too" there's little else being said.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='the boy' timestamp='1441272453' post='2857355']
This is getting a bit "am too" followed by "are not" followed by "am too" and then "are not". Let's simply say that blue thinks the Beatles are awesome and move on because other "am too" there's little else being said.
[/quote]

Well thank you very much, because I believe that my previous post is not just an 'are not' but raises reasonable points which can be debated.

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='the boy' timestamp='1441272453' post='2857355']
there's little else being said.
[/quote]

Is too.

[TimR]

I think there's still good debate going on.

The perspective from Paul himself about it is interesting. He'd already been exposed to what was going on for several years which may have put a different slant on it.

[operative451]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1441240528' post='2857246']
Unfortunately, it just means you don't get it. Not the worse thing in the world, it's just the way it is.

Blue
[/quote]

Or it could also mean i was being silly... But hey, its ok, your epiphanies are more epipany-ey than anyone else's, you win.

Is there anything on telly?

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1441281207' post='2857478']
Or it could also mean i was being silly... But hey, its ok, your epiphanies are more epipany-ey than anyone else's, you win.

Is there anything on telly?
[/quote]

Not necessarily - maybe his epiphany was just the only epiphany he's ever had in the fifty years since?
That's a hell of a long time to be able to "get it" *taps nose knowingly* - while anyone else would recognise it as just a golden teen-aged memory, which we all have.

[mentalextra]

Hey "blue"! Why not put up a video of your band playing a Beatles track for us to 'appreciate'! I'd love to hear the difference between the Beatles covers i've heard and a real expert!

[spinynorman]

When my daughter was in her early 20s, about 10 years ago, her then boyfriend played bass in a thrash metal band. We found a friendly pub that was prepared to put on the Dad's Rock band that I was in, supported by the boyfriend's metal outfit. The audience for this series of extravaganzas fell into two camps. Friends of my band, who had been duped in into arriving during the thrash metal set, and friends of the thrash metal band, who, to my surprise, stayed and enthusiastically supported the Dad's Rock slot.

The Dad's Rock crowd generally regarded thrash metal as a tuneless cacophony, with no relation to The Beatles or anything else they regarded as music. I explained as patiently as I could that, even if they didn't like it, it was being performed very, very well, and then slipped away to talk to the metallers, who were far more interesting.

The metallers were all 20 years younger than me, but the "it must have been great when you were young" came from them, not me. They were very well aware of where "their" music came from, though they were more likely to revere Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin and The Stones, rather than The Beatles. They were also, far and away the best audience I encountered in 15 years of gigging.

In relation to this thread, the point is, everyone who is interested in music comes at it from a different perspective and you can have far more rewarding conversations if you accept that, rather than trying to ram a single point of view down their throats.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1441284439' post='2857527']
Not necessarily - maybe his epiphany was just the only epiphany he's ever had in the fifty years since?
That's a hell of a long time to be able to "get it" *taps nose knowingly* - while anyone else would recognise it as just a golden teen-aged memory, which we all have.
[/quote]

I don't think it's unreasonable that someone only has a few real epiphanies when they are young, and receptive to this sort of thing. I would imagine that many people are similar. Are there older musicians who said that they were primarily influenced by The Beatles, largely or wholly supplanting their previous influences? Mostly, people are shaped by things that happen in their formative years.

[charic]

Who was bigger? The beatles or Michael Jackson


*runs and hides

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1441284439' post='2857527']
just a golden teen-aged memory, which we all have.
[/quote]

Aye. Tops and fingers. And The Beatles of course.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1441292198' post='2857648']
Who was bigger? The beatles or Michael Jackson

*runs and hides
[/quote]

I do realise that your joking, but I'll say:

The important bit is not who was 'bigger', but who was more innovative and influential. Which was the more important album, Fleetwood Mac's 'Rumours' or the lesser selling 'Sgt Pepper's'?