Flat response bass cabinets - Do they exist?

[Wolverinebass]

These days the fashion is to have a more DI authentic type response from one's cabs. So that the DI you take from your amp (I'm assuming a post EQ DI here) will be the same as comes out one's cab. My question is, does anyone actually make a cab or range of cabs which do this? If so, whom? Barefaced? Bergantino? Mesa Boogie? TKS? (just to name a few of the higher end brands) I'm discounting Markbass as their cabs have all sorts of weird notches and peaks in them and obviously Ampeg and Ashdwon as theirs are massively coloured. Okay if you like that sort of thing, but rather unfortunate if you don't.

Do any manufacturers actually have anything that can deliver this boast or is it all just marketing pants and you should just use your own ears to determine if the "colour" on offer is the one you want?

I'm curious to gauge people's opinions on this and if this claim whether justified or not plays any part in what cabs people buy for themselves. This is of course on the assumption that you could afford anything and didn't have to buy a 10 year old Ashdown Mag 4x10 for £50 off Ebay.

[JTUK]

I'm not sure of the value... most bass players can't handle clean or uncoloured and will only want to put it back in with a pedal anyway.

The reason gtrs like overdrive is the reason bass players like Ampeg.. IMO.

Hide a multitude of sins...and the vast majority of bass players I see and hear could not handle a clean pure signal
so it depends where you put the lack of colour ... in the amp or cab.
A clean amp might not be the same in terms of a clean cab.. but it can amount to pretty much the same when the signal is pure
and that is difficult to play with.
Example... play back in the studio without any treatment to the bass... could be a nightmare for some.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The only commercial cabs that I'm aware of that have reasonably flat response are Baer and Barefaced. If you want to be able to tell if a cab may have something close to flat response see if it has a midrange driver. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Even if it has a tweeter it won't be flat, there will be a response hole between the woofer and tweeter, if not on axis definitely off-axis. OTOH a tweeter isn't necessary, a good midrange driver goes as high as at least 90% of bass players really need.

[Lozz196]

From what I`ve heard in both FOH, and recorded, compared to my Barefaced Super 12Ts (with the tweeter off) these are as near as I`ve found yet. I wanted the BF cabs for one for the lightweight and portability but mainly for the fact that my sound on stage is what the audience hear through FOH (unless it gets changed by whoever is on the desk).

Edited July 30, 2015 by Lozz196

[discreet]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1438288494' post='2833358']
Example... play back in the studio without any treatment to the bass... could be a nightmare for some.
[/quote]

That's about the only time I ever get a sound that I actually like.

[LukeFRC]

ACME B2 is pretty flat. (and goes low)

Also tried the Barefaced Big baby. Not as low and has a wee spike in the mids which works really well for electric bass.


The whole thing is a bit weird though, as the moment you stick it in a room it's no longer flat response is it? So then you'd need some some active DSP to flatten it to the room....
The old Bergantino IP series had DSP to help protect the driver on the low end and flatten it out... but from what I understand they didn't go for a "flat" response, more a "sounds good" response.

I had a Hellborg preamp into a power amp into a ACME B2 - and that was clean and flat and sounded good. I now have a Mesa Walkabout scout which is about as far from that setup as you can get....

ACME would be my recommendation though for cabs

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1438288515' post='2833359']
The only commercial cabs that I'm aware of that have reasonably flat response are Baer and Barefaced. If you want to be able to tell if a cab may have something close to flat response see if it has a midrange driver. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Even if it has a tweeter it won't be flat, there will be a response hole between the woofer and tweeter, if not on axis definitely off-axis. OTOH a tweeter isn't necessary, a good midrange driver goes as high as at least 90% of bass players really need.
[/quote] Would you class your simplexx range as a "commercial cab" option?

[3below]

I have a custom built Shermann cabinet 15" 6.5" mid and horn with flat response (I missed my Barefaced Big One that I traded for a Dubster so had this built). Until I got used to it I found it was very forward and unforgiving of poor technique and punished clacky piezos. They are a great company to deal with and will build what you want (at a price). The difference (to my ears) between Barefaced Dubster and full range cabinets is not that vast. I appreciate I am 'getting older' but my hf range is still good to 14-16 KHz. Do you need a flat response cab or a cab that makes your basses sound good? they may not be the same item.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1438288920' post='2833371']
Would you class your simplexx range as a "commercial cab" option?
[/quote]No. While they don't have a midrange they do specify the Eminence BGH tweeter, the only bass specific tweeter that I'm aware of. Used with a 4th order high pass it runs to 2kHz, nearly an octave lower than most commercial cab tweeters, eliminating the off-axis response dip which commercial cabs suffer from. It also rolls off lower, at 8kHz, reducing hiss. Crossing at 2kHz also eliminates the typical electric bass woofer break-up mode in the 2.5kHz-3.5kHz region, so overall response is flatter as well.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1438288494' post='2833358'] I'm not sure of the value... most bass players can't handle clean or uncoloured and will only want to put it back in with a pedal anyway. The reason gtrs like overdrive is the reason bass players like Ampeg.. IMO. Hide a multitude of sins...and the vast majority of bass players I see and hear could not handle a clean pure signal so it depends where you put the lack of colour ... in the amp or cab. A clean amp might not be the same in terms of a clean cab.. but it can amount to pretty much the same when the signal is pure and that is difficult to play with. Example... play back in the studio without any treatment to the bass... could be a nightmare for some. [/quote]

Its not so much about having a totally clean uncoloured sound (although it would give you that option as a bonus), its about having your on stage sound be a better representation of what is heard through other sources e.g. the DI .Its also about the sound being volume independent as in not having to worry about an amp/speaker volume sweet spot. Same applies to power amp distortion. If you can get your sound/tone fully shaped by the and of the preamp stage with a neutral power amp and speaker then your in a lot more control of what you and the audience hear.

Edited July 31, 2015 by bassman7755

[shizznit]

I used to use Euphonic Audio gear a while ago and their amps and cabs are the cleanest, most transparent amps I have heard. I didn't buy an EA cab though as it was too flat sounding for what I needed at the time and I only used the iAmp500 for recording mostly. Their Wizzy range of cabs are superb for a studio quality, uncoloured result.

[LewisK1975]

Where's Alex? He should have a proper technical answer for this!

[alexclaber]

Our Big Baby 2 and Big Twin 2 are about as accurate as can be (there's a lot more to accurate sound than flat on-axis response) and the Super Midget isn't that far behind. Unless you're using a seriously good PA system they'll be less coloured than the PA.

[JTUK]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1438320286' post='2833491']
Its not so much about having a totally clean uncoloured sound (although it would give you that option as a bonus), its about having your on stage sound be a better representation of what is heard through other sources e.g. the DI .Its also about the sound being volume independent as in not having to worry about an amp/speaker volume sweet spot. Same applies to power amp distortion. If you can get your sound/tone fully shaped by the and of the preamp stage with a neutral power amp and speaker then your in a lot more control of what you and the audience hear.
[/quote]

But still subject to the FOH man doing HIS thing... as his job is to make the context sound good...so I doubt you'll be able to exert that control.
He wants a clean signal in... but I doubt very much he'll send a clean signal out and bass players at our level are to accommodated, within reason.
It is his bat and ball and what reference will you use to find out what he is doing to the signal when busy playing..?

If you like clank and he doesn't..guess who wins..??

[chris_b]

I'd agree with JTUK. I don't see the advantage of "flat" in the bass world.

The concept of "flat" just seems like a starting point to me. Then you add [i]your[/i] sound.

Are there any "flat" basses out there? My fingers certainly don't do "flat".

So starting with a non flat amp and cab seems like a no brainer, as long as their sound is heading in the direction you wanted to go in the first place.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1438352242' post='2833835']Are there any "flat" basses out there? My fingers certainly don't do "flat".
[/quote]

I'm sorry Chris, normally your views are well worth listening to but this makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE AT ALL!!!

If there is no point to accurate (aka transparent) amplification and loudspeakers then why do so many bassists DI in the studio and through PA systems? You make music with your instrument. If the tone coming from the instrument is exactly what you want, then why would you change it?

If the tone coming from the instrument isn't what you want then you can use FX/amps/speakers to change the tone (add colouration) to get the sound you want.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1438352242' post='2833835']
I'd agree with JTUK. I don't see the advantage of "flat" in the bass world.

The concept of "flat" just seems like a starting point to me. Then you add [i]your[/i] sound.

Are there any "flat" basses out there? My fingers certainly don't do "flat".

So starting with a non flat amp and cab seems like a no brainer, as long as their sound is heading in the direction you wanted to go in the first place.
[/quote]

Having a flat amp/cab makes you tailor your sound on the bass EQ and hand positioning so you'll be sending the FOH the "tailored sound" trough the DI.
I use the Shuttle 9.2 with the Super12T and this combination is a very good aproximation of a flat rig. In every outdoor gig i had this year the bass channel on the mixer was left flat by the sound engineers because they liked the sound the way it got there, one of them actually called me just to show the track and complimented the sound of the TRB.

If you like to tailor your sound through your amp/cab it's perfectly fine and it's not wrong. You'll only need to either mic the cab or let the engineer hear your rig sound before EQing the mixer. Or just trust him to do his job and believe he gets it right (in my experience with hired PA company, i only got a couple of engineers that didn't knew how to EQ a bass sound, before opening the bass track the EQ on the mixer was already with the good old "V" shape... thay didn't had a clue that not every bass player want's to sound like a P bass going through a Valve Ampeg in a 8x10 box)


Edit: Alex beat me to it

Edited July 31, 2015 by Ghost_Bass

[JTUK]

If someone decided that a flat response was their goal and then decided a whole load of EQ and FX were in the chain, where would that leave you?

What is a far better goal, IMO..is balance from your tone stack and that is where very good amps score. It then helps if you don't have a lumpy old cab
but try playing thru a good P.A cab as your backline..? Not many do that for a reason, IMO.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1438352242' post='2833835']
I'd agree with JTUK. I don't see the advantage of "flat" in the bass world.

The concept of "flat" just seems like a starting point to me. Then you add [i]your[/i] sound.

Are there any "flat" basses out there? My fingers certainly don't do "flat".

So starting with a non flat amp and cab seems like a no brainer, as long as their sound is heading in the direction you wanted to go in the first place.
[/quote]

Its about shaping the tone early in the chain and having neutral amplification and not necessarily about having a "flat" resulting tone. I like quite a processed dirty tone, I just don't want my power amp and speaker contributing to that.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1438347609' post='2833770']
If you like clank and he doesn't..guess who wins..??
[/quote]

The desk get my pre-amp DI out. Its non-negotiable. The presence or absence of "clank" is my artistic judgement to make, not the sound engineers.

Edited July 31, 2015 by bassman7755

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1438353545' post='2833854']


I'm sorry Chris, normally your views are well worth listening to but this makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE AT ALL!!!

If there is no point to accurate (aka transparent) amplification and loudspeakers then why do so many bassists DI in the studio and through PA systems? You make music with your instrument. If the tone coming from the instrument is exactly what you want, then why would you change it?

If the tone coming from the instrument isn't what you want then you can use FX/amps/speakers to change the tone (add colouration) to get the sound you want.
[/quote]


I can't recall one gig I've played where the bass was a Mic'd cab over the dry as hell DI. If it was the other way around then I probably wouldn't have gone through so many cabs.

Sure I could turn up with my own mic and what not and be a stuck up snob about it but I'm not about that.

I already turn up with my own DI and that's anal enough.

Still would like to have that sealed coloured sound but no point when everyone else hears the dryest signal ever.

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1438355321' post='2833880']
If someone decided that a flat response was their goal and then decided a whole load of EQ and FX were in the chain, where would that leave you?
[/quote]

That would leave you with your insane amounts of FX reproduced as you wish rather than EQ'ing for the cabs you're using. At least, you'd hope so....

My view stems from the fact that I'm tired of EQ'ing for the cabs I'm using. It's not that they're bad if you're using a 4 string, but if you use an 8 or a 12ver, well, they are seriously less so and although I can get a good sound, the post amp DI sounds like a buzzsaw with virtually no low end on it at all. That isn't what comes out as obviously there is a huge boost in the 100-180Hz region from the cab rather than the amp. The fact that the treble is pretty much uncontrollable with those tweeters just does my head in as most EQ's are tailored for control of the lows rather than treble which is a pity. There are some really weird boosts about 3-4kHz and that's very difficult to control on a bass that is in effect 2/3rds of a guitar and has quite a lot of signal up there.

Whilst Chris' point of flat response being a starting point to me is valid, I just find it irritating that DI's differ so much from the output because cabs are hyped in certain areas. If the problem can be solved for PA's can we not do a bit better for us humble coffee maker bass players?

[JTUK]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1438356372' post='2833894']
The desk get my pre-amp DI out. Its non-negotiable. The presence or absence of "clank" is my artistic judgement to make, not the sound engineers.
[/quote]

But I'd suggest he could still influence it to quite a degree...and you'll not easily know..

[chris_b]

Alex, I don't disagree but I'm not sure I said anything that controversial. As the discussion was about "flat" I was wondering what you end up with in a perfectly "flat" system. Can't "accurate" exist in a "non-flat" system? How is your sound in the back room of a pub going to be replicated when you play at Wembely Stadium the next night? IME a DI is about handing your sound to someone who can make that sound a better fit in a different environment, ie a studio or through a FOH.

IME "flat" is pasta without any salt.

Players are "colouring" their sound at every stage of the signal chain. My point was where should "flat" start in the chain and where would their sound ideally be created? I look at my rig as a jig-saw with the sound being created at every stage of the chain, by every stage working with the others to get the final sound. If the sound of a cab isn't giving you the sound you want then get one that does. On the other hand a "flat" cab might very well be the one you want.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Wolverinebass' timestamp='1438357808' post='2833919']
That would leave you with your insane amounts of FX reproduced as you wish rather than EQ'ing for the cabs you're using. At least, you'd hope so....

My view stems from the fact that I'm tired of EQ'ing for the cabs I'm using. It's not that they're bad if you're using a 4 string, but if you use an 8 or a 12ver, well, they are seriously less so and although I can get a good sound, the post amp DI sounds like a buzzsaw with virtually no low end on it at all. That isn't what comes out as obviously there is a huge boost in the 100-180Hz region from the cab rather than the amp. The fact that the treble is pretty much uncontrollable with those tweeters just does my head in as most EQ's are tailored for control of the lows rather than treble which is a pity. There are some really weird boosts about 3-4kHz and that's very difficult to control on a bass that is in effect 2/3rds of a guitar and has quite a lot of signal up there.

Whilst Chris' point of flat response being a starting point to me is valid, I just find it irritating that DI's differ so much from the output because cabs are hyped in certain areas. If the problem can be solved for PA's can we not do a bit better for us humble coffee maker bass players?
[/quote]

The answer is up your tail which is where most bass players end up anyway....otherwise the pages of this forums would be pretty thin..

The other issue is what P.A's are you guys trusting to..?
I don't see min tech riders for your stage requirements and you don't even know who is doing the sound so altho the concept is nice... and the lip service is fine, that is as far as it goes. IMO.

If bands have a tech rider spec and their own engr, then I'd say you are on the road to getting what YOU want..otherwise, you're likely one of 4 bands with a 5 min soundcheck allowance, in all honesty.

Edited July 31, 2015 by JTUK