Flat response bass cabinets - Do they exist?

[chris_b]

[quote name='Wolverinebass' timestamp='1438357808' post='2833919']
I just find it irritating that DI's differ so much from the output because cabs are hyped in certain areas.
[/quote]

Sounds like you'd be better off with a mic on the cab.

[Ghost_Bass]

Nobody's right or wrong on this, each has his own way to achieve the desired result.

I like to tailor my sound on the bass and then add the noises on the pedalboard so that when it get to the amp i only need to EQ it for the room (normaly just adjust the mid-bump/cut freq and add or remove bass depending on the room's rumble).

Doing it this way i need my rig to be "flat" (of course nothing is really flat) so it can reproduce accurately what's going in, only louder. When i take the DI out from my amp (usually pre-EQ but in some rooms i've aided the PA with a post-EQ signal that's already EQ'd for the room) the signal is still [b]my sound[/b] because it doesn't rely on amp or cab to further enhance it (the sound is only affected/EQ'd in two stages: bass and fx).

This is the way i do and it works for me, i believe this makes me have less fusses on soundcheck and the soundguys are often happy with it and mix my bass in a minute. The more variables one adds to the tone shaping the harder will be to balance the final sound in the mix [b]IMO[/b].

[mrtcat]

I accept that my cab sound is more for me than anything because if there's a foh engineer involved I have to trust him to do what he thinks is right overall out front. We choose certain engineers over others as some consistently get a better result. Putting a mic in front of a cab with a 15 inch driver, a 6 inch mid driver and a tweeter requires real skill to capture the overall sound of that cab and the reflection off the wall behind etc. I much prefer a flat cab as it puts the control of the on stage sound more in my hands but I still accept that 9 times out of 10 the best thing I can do for the foh sound is to make sure I'm giving the engineer a good signal to work with. I'll often use a sansamp (other DI pedals are available) for that as it is in my signal chain constantly anyway and I have had good results plus engineers seem happy with the signal it gives.

Edited July 31, 2015 by mrtcat

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1438357828' post='2833920']
But I'd suggest he could still influence it to quite a degree...and you'll not easily know..
[/quote]

Perhaps so, but I'f I'm hearing what he is at least as a starting point, then theres a better chance I can provide a sound that needs a minimum of mangling at the desk and so far my conversations with sound engineers have indicated I generally do a pretty good job of that.

Really this thread is about the idea of separating the duties of sound/tone shaping from the actual amplification and you either "get" the benefits of this approach or you don't I guess, but it seems like its a growing trend hence the popularity of pedals such as the sansamp and darkglass and the mere existence of exotic stuff like the Jule preamps. To answer your earlier point about "why dont bassist just use a PA as backline" well the distinction is getting more blurred all the time and at some point we may no longer be talking about bass cabs vs PA but just a-box-that-makes-things-louder.

[alexclaber]

I wish it was easier to use the quoting thing on my phone!

I don't like the term 'flat response' for two reasons. Firstly it sounds boring/dull/unmusical/sterile/etc. And secondly flat frequency response on axis is only one quarter of what you need if you want ACCURATE sound reproduction - you also need equally good polar response, transient response and dynamic response. Whichever of the four aspects is worst will dominate your tone.

I understand that plenty of bassists want their amp and/or cabs to add colouration to get their tone. But there are a LOT of great bassists who usually recorded via DI. Every single Motown bassline was DI'd (let me know if you know of one that wasn't!)

If the late great James Jamerson wanted to get the same tone on a gig that he had on those recordings and he was alive now he could run through that same preamp into a power amp and through something like a Big Twin 2 and absolutely nail that awesome Motown sound. Sadly the few times he toured he had to struggle with getting heard through some of the mediocre rigs of that era.

There is no way you can say Jamerson's tone is like "pasta with salt"! For modern equivalent look at Anthony Jackson. Amazing player, amazing tone and he uses a bass with one pickup, no knobs, and live he goes through a super clean mic preamp into very accurate Meyer Sound active cabs.

[JTUK]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1438362881' post='2833999']
Perhaps so, but I'f I'm hearing what he is at least as a starting point, then theres a better chance I can provide a sound that needs a minimum of mangling at the desk and so far my conversations with sound engineers have indicated I generally do a pretty good job of that.

Really this thread is about the idea of separating the duties of sound/tone shaping from the actual amplification and you either "get" the benefits of this approach or you don't I guess, but it seems like its a growing trend hence the popularity of pedals such as the sansamp and darkglass and the mere existence of exotic stuff like the Jule preamps. To answer your earlier point about "why dont bassist just use a PA as backline" well the distinction is getting more blurred all the time and at some point we may no longer be talking about bass cabs vs PA but just a-box-that-makes-things-louder.
[/quote]

Well, if I read these thread's right most people's bass rig is better than the P.A they're using..??
There are P.A's and P.A's but if I took a local sample as sort of indicative of what goes on here...
they bass sound isn't very good to start with...and neither are the P.A's... so where were we again?

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1438358462' post='2833928']


Sounds like you'd be better off with a mic on the cab.
[/quote]

I agree with that completely Chris. However, if the sound guy won't do it then you're kind of screwed and you're stuck with at best a post eq DI. Most won't even agree to that and insist on the DI before the amp. I've taken my own Heil PR40 to gigs and most still won't mic the cab. It's ludicrous. However, I digress somewhat.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='Wolverinebass' timestamp='1438286729' post='2833336']
These days the fashion is to have a more DI authentic type response from one's cabs. So that the DI you take from your amp (I'm assuming a post EQ DI here) will be the same as comes out one's cab. My question is, does anyone actually make a cab or range of cabs which do this? If so, whom? Barefaced? Bergantino? Mesa Boogie? TKS? (just to name a few of the higher end brands) I'm discounting Markbass as their cabs have all sorts of weird notches and peaks in them and obviously Ampeg and Ashdwon as theirs are massively coloured. Okay if you like that sort of thing, but rather unfortunate if you don't.

Do any manufacturers actually have anything that can deliver this boast or is it all just marketing pants and you should just use your own ears to determine if the "colour" on offer is the one you want?

I'm curious to gauge people's opinions on this and if this claim whether justified or not plays any part in what cabs people buy for themselves. This is of course on the assumption that you could afford anything and didn't have to buy a 10 year old Ashdown Mag 4x10 for £50 off Ebay.
[/quote]

I like cabs and amps with minimal baked in voicing, but I also believe that everyone should use their ears and do what makes themselves and the paying customers happy. As a long time sound provider I would tell you that your onstage rig is never going to accurately portray what happens at FOH in a dance club over the course of a night around here, but in a jazz setting there is an excellent chance it will. So as usual, it just depends.

[ambient]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1438288515' post='2833359']
The only commercial cabs that I'm aware of that have reasonably flat response are Baer and Barefaced. If you want to be able to tell if a cab may have something close to flat response see if it has a midrange driver. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Even if it has a tweeter it won't be flat, there will be a response hole between the woofer and tweeter, if not on axis definitely off-axis. OTOH a tweeter isn't necessary, a good midrange driver goes as high as at least 90% of bass players really need.
[/quote]

Acme ?

[scalpy]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1438363997' post='2834013']


I understand that plenty of bassists want their amp and/or cabs to add colouration to get their tone. But there are a LOT of great bassists who usually recorded via DI. Every single Motown bassline was DI'd (let me know if you know of one that wasn't!)

If the late great James Jamerson wanted to get the same tone on a gig that he had on those recordings and he was alive now he could run through that same preamp into a power amp and through something like a Big Twin 2 and absolutely nail that awesome Motown sound. Sadly the few times he toured he had to struggle with getting heard through some of the mediocre rigs of that era.

There is no way you can say Jamerson's tone is like "pasta with salt"!
[/quote]

Can't believe I'm challenging Alex Claber here but....

Jamerson's studio sound is a long way from the modern concept of a DI. He and the other guitarists ran into a headphone amp that doubled as a DI and the signal broke up as they cranked their volumes up. Definitely salted that pasta!

As for onstage cab sounds, personally I think as long as I'm playing at a volume that doesn't effect what front of house are doing then I want cabs that I enjoy listening to, that are fun to play through and make me feel good about what I'm playing. Leave the clinical stuff to the sound guy!

Edited July 31, 2015 by scalpy

[alexclaber]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1438372198' post='2834119']
Jamerson's studio sound is a long way from the modern concept of a DI. He and the other guitarists ran into a headphone amp that doubled as a DI and the signal broke up as they cranked their volumes up. Definitely salted that pasta![/quote]

No, that's my exact point!

I have never miced my cabs for gigs or recording. Since 1999 I have used the most accurate cabs available. That doesn't mean I've always gone for 'pristine' clean tones. I'm a huge fan of dirty sounds, pushing preamps to break-up, using piles of FX pedals, doing extreme EQing.

Even when I'm running a completely clean sound I'll attack the bass in a multitude of ways to get a huge variety of sounds. The more accurate the cab, the more you can hear how my hands are shaping my tone.

To continue the seasoning analogy, you could say that using an accurate cab is like cooking a dish and putting the salt and pepper in before serving as opposed once its on the plate.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1438364645' post='2834020']
Well, if I read these thread's right most people's bass rig is better than the P.A they're using..??
There are P.A's and P.A's but if I took a local sample as sort of indicative of what goes on here...
they bass sound isn't very good to start with...and neither are the P.A's... so where were we again?
[/quote]

I wasnt really suggesting that bass players should use a PA instead of a bass rig but rather that the technologies are converging because weve now got a lot of lightweight power to throw at the problem thanks to class D amps.

I see a future were you have your "tone" box in one hand your "loud" box in another, where maybe the entire bands gear consists of x number of loud boxes as required by the situation.

IMO self powered loud boxes like alex's FR800 are where were headed. I just need to persuade him to produce a super small/light variant based on the super midget :-)

[scalpy]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1438372936' post='2834126']


No, that's my exact point!

I have never miced my cabs for gigs or recording. Since 1999 I have used the most accurate cabs available. That doesn't mean I've always gone for 'pristine' clean tones. I'm a huge fan of dirty sounds, pushing preamps to break-up, using piles of FX pedals, doing extreme EQing.

Even when I'm running a completely clean sound I'll attack the bass in a multitude of ways to get a huge variety of sounds. The more accurate the cab, the more you can hear how my hands are shaping my tone.

To continue the seasoning analogy, you could say that using an accurate cab is like cooking a dish and putting the salt and pepper in before serving as opposed once its on the plate.
[/quote]

I was thinking about my post and was going to add a caveat agreeing with you!! Whoops, I'd actually stopped reading basschat to do some practice....
If you need a transparent cab to get what you need then fair enough. I like the cabs I use contribution and they get miced when I'm in the studio, but I work with a producer that is willing to do that and who also appreciates this business is about character.

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1438363997' post='2834013']
I wish it was easier to use the quoting thing on my phone!

I don't like the term 'flat response' for two reasons. Firstly it sounds boring/dull/unmusical/sterile/etc. And secondly flat frequency response on axis is only one quarter of what you need if you want ACCURATE sound reproduction - you also need equally good polar response, transient response and dynamic response. Whichever of the four aspects is worst will dominate your tone.

I understand that plenty of bassists want their amp and/or cabs to add colouration to get their tone. But there are a LOT of great bassists who usually recorded via DI. Every single Motown bassline was DI'd (let me know if you know of one that wasn't!)

If the late great James Jamerson wanted to get the same tone on a gig that he had on those recordings and he was alive now he could run through that same preamp into a power amp and through something like a Big Twin 2 and absolutely nail that awesome Motown sound. Sadly the few times he toured he had to struggle with getting heard through some of the mediocre rigs of that era.

There is no way you can say Jamerson's tone is like "pasta with salt"! For modern equivalent look at Anthony Jackson. Amazing player, amazing tone and he uses a bass with one pickup, no knobs, and live he goes through a super clean mic preamp into very accurate Meyer Sound active cabs.
[/quote]

Sorry! I had to resurrect this post just to say RESPECT to Alex for that statement!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1438288737' post='2833364']
That's about the only time I ever get a sound that I actually like.
[/quote]

My favourite sound from the bass is when it isnt even plugged in, seriously my status sound fantastic acoustically (although its not very loud obviously).

Edited April 10, 2016 by bassman7755

[project_c]

Agree about the Jamerson comments. Jamerson's tone was a dry signal which was degraded (enhanced?) by tape saturation. The tone people are chasing can be recreated by recording to old tape and pushing the gain as high as you can, or possibly even just using some tape saturation plugins. The whole Ampeg thing with Jamerson is just misleading marketing. He may have used Ampeg live, but his recorded tone had little to do with it.

The best way you'll get close to a flat response without going to a treated studio and playing through monitors is if you plug in direct to a DAW, use no amp or cab sims and listen through a pair of studio quality headphones. I love that tone on my basses and much prefer it to playing through amps most of the time. But that's also down to terrible room acoustics almost everywhere I play. The room makes a huge difference to tone, I'm often very surprised by how much.

[IanA]

I think if Jamerson were alive and still gigging he would be using IEM's and a DI box. That is the way forward, and no matter how light or loud your cab is the gigs where you can rock up with a bass and your IEMs are by far the easiest imo.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='IanA' timestamp='1460365017' post='3024905']
I think if Jamerson were alive and still gigging he would be using IEM's and a DI box. That is the way forward, and no matter how light or loud your cab is the gigs where you can rock up with a bass and your IEMs are by far the easiest imo.
[/quote]That is not why I play music. If I want to be playing over headphones, I use a Vox Amplug but playing live I like to "hear".

I would not buy Martin or Taylor without a sound hole so why use a bass without an amp/speaker, if only for your own monitoring.

[IanA]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1460465971' post='3025931']
That is not why I play music. If I want to be playing over headphones, I use a Vox Amplug but playing live I like to "hear".

I would not buy Martin or Taylor without a sound hole so why use a bass without an amp/speaker, if only for your own monitoring.
[/quote]
Have you ever used custom IEM's such as 1964's or UE's? Through a decent system it is not really comparable to the vox amplug. Why do you think most pro players use them on stage? Amps on stage are starting to become a thing of the past with some venues in the USA even banning them completely. Like it or not live sound is evolving.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='IanA' timestamp='1460554558' post='3026758']...Like it or not live sound is evolving.
[/quote]

On the other hand, there are still enthusiasts for steam trains and vintage motorcycles. Modern progress does not [i]have [/i]to sweep quite so clean; there is a place for sentiment and nostalgia.

[IanA]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460626706' post='3027315']


On the other hand, there are still enthusiasts for steam trains and vintage motorcycles. Modern progress does not [i]have [/i]to sweep quite so clean; there is a place for sentiment and nostalgia.
[/quote]
I totally agree however whether something remains in mainstream usage or not is another matter. I used to love driving my TR6 but compared to my SMax it was uncomfortable noisy, leaked, went rusty... I would never use it for day to day use now as the modern technology makes things so much easier.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='IanA' timestamp='1460628738' post='3027337']... I used to love driving my TR6 but compared to my SMax it was uncomfortable...
[/quote]



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