*PLEASE DELETE*

[joshua.harris1234]

Please delete this thread, don't have time for some people's answers. Btw, leave me alone, I'm going to bass gear, I only wanted to ask. How am I supposed to try something out when it's not at any store in UK except for Bass Gear? They'll probably go out of stock anyway because it is a Fodera. So thanks a lot for some people's answers on this forum. Those of you who were kind enough to give a decent reply (even though how stupid the question sounds I admit), thank you.

Edited August 6, 2015 by joshua.harris1234

[EssentialTension]

Thomann do a 30 day money back guarantee.

[dannybuoy]

... and when I've ordered pedals from them I've not liked, I've been able to return them for free as well, which is a great service. I assume the same would apply to a bass even though the shipping costs are much higher and Thomann would end up losing out? But perhaps in the end they win if more people buy their stuff from them as a result.

[Lw.]

I wonder what the most expensive product someone has returned using distance selling regulations is? I'd love to see the sales manager's face when he gets a Fodera back through the door!

Are you sure you want to go down that route? I mean this is a lot of money to spend on a bass, seems like a shame to miss out on the experience of going to the shop, trying things out & falling for the bass before paying out - why not go to a UK retailer & try one?

[Grangur]

Thomann operate using an enhanced version of the European Distance Selling rules.

The EDSR says they must give you a 14 day trial, or cooling off, period. If you return the goods within this period Thomann will pay the carriage for the return.

Thomann, as great folk that they are, allow you to return a product within a 30 day period, but after 14 days you have to pay the carriage.

If you return a Fodera after 14 days, good luck to you in paying the insurance for the carrier on a bass of that value.

I'm sure Thomann would be totally thrilled to buy in a Fodera type value bass especially for you, to get it back after 14 days with the explanation of "it wasn't really me after all". IMO I think the prospect if you doing this to them stinks. But maybe I'm just old fashioned.

[Grangur]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1438709412' post='2836615']
That was suggested in the other thread in this section ;-)
[/quote]
This is the 3rd thread that I know of that's been opened to discuss this 1 purchase.

[Zenitram]

Someone I know said his mum used to buy things from Ikea, assemble them, pop them in her van and take them back for a refund, go for a coffee, wait for an hour then go and buy it back in the clearance section at half price.

[Zenitram]

I keep waiting for B-stock Strymon stuff to appear on Thomann, and I confess I had idly wondered if buying it myself and then returning it for a full refund would result in it popping up for sale a bit cheaper a few days later.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1438709504' post='2836616']
I'm sure Thomann would be totally thrilled to buy in a Fodera type value bass especially for you, to get it back after 14 days with the explanation of "it wasn't really me after all". IMO I think the prospect if you doing this to them stinks. But maybe I'm just old fashioned.
[/quote]

I'm sorry but I have to agree with this... I know thomann make lots of money, money is evil, down with capitalism yada yada, but this just sounds wrong to me. It would never be "as new" when you returned it.

If I'd spent £5k on a fodera and got one someone else had been playing for a month I'd send it back.

[Kev]

It's a moral issue really, its not nice to take advantage over such fair policies.

I read in another thread on here that someone had bought a 'Deko' instrument from Thomann (for those who don't know, these are instruments for display only as they are sold as unplayable) and was going to send it back...because it didn't play well enough for him. How can that be right?

Its a great policy, but not one I would ever consider taking advantage of. If I have purchased an instrument, I have made the decision. Unless there instrument fundamentally has something wrong with it, I would never consider returning it. Effects pedals and small items, different kettle of fish really as they are much easier to ship, restock and sell again with no fuss, but instruments must be a pain for them.

[Grangur]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1438716471' post='2836678']
I'm sorry but I have to agree with this... I know thomann make lots of money, money is evil, down with capitalism yada yada, but this just sounds wrong to me. It would never be "as new" when you returned it.

If I'd spent £5k on a fodera and got one someone else had been playing for a month I'd send it back.
[/quote]
In the nicest possible way, Rob, I disagree with you about capitalism. The bottom line is Thomann provide employment to a good number of honest folk in Germany. Those folk have rent to pay and food to put on the table for their families.

Mr Joshua Harris is contemplating making it harder for the man who pays those folk to give them those wages. Capitalism is not all bad. Most of it is about feeding folk like us.

OK, it's possible that Josh Harris MIGHT keep the bass. But he owes it to all concerned to be pretty certain that he truly wants that bass and with a bass of that value he should take ALL available steps to make sure the bass WON'T be going back lightly.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1438717321' post='2836689']

In the nicest possible way, Rob, I disagree with you about capitalism. The bottom line is Thomann provide employment to a good number of honest folk in Germany. Those folk have rent to pay and food to put on the table for their families.

Mr Joshua Harris is contemplating making it harder for the man who pays those folk to give them those wages. Capitalism is not all bad. Most of it is about feeding folk like us.

OK, it's possible that Josh Harris MIGHT keep the bass. But he owes it to all concerned to be pretty certain that he truly wants that bass and with a bass of that value he should take ALL available steps to make sure the bass WON'T be going back lightly.
[/quote]

Oh I agree with you entirely... I was prempting a barrage of "thomann are rich so it doesn't matter if people treat them badly" comments.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1438717106' post='2836685']
I read in another thread on here that someone had bought a 'Deko' instrument from Thomann (for those who don't know, these are instruments for display only as they are sold as unplayable) and was going to send it back...because it didn't play well enough for him. How can that be right?
[/quote]

Being able to return something bought at a distance within the cooling off period is a fundamental part of e-business law. The purpose of the law is to put someone who buys online in the same position as someone who buys in a shop. If someone bought a 'deko' instrument in person, then they could inspect it and decide whether or not they wanted to purchase it or not after an inspection. The law creates the same opportunity for goods bought at a distance, to inspect them before purchasing. A person buying from a shop can make their decision for whatever reason they want, e.g. they may decide that they don't like the way the pickups smell, or there may be a knot in the neck wood that looks like a reproductive organ or something. The law we have gives people buying online a similar flexibility for deciding not to buy goods - i.e. for any reason they damn please.

The law is not just there for moral reasons, but also for practical reasons. If we didn't have the right to return items bought unseen, then online buying would become one big massive 'Market for Lemons'. Giving consumers the power to reject goods they don't want gives consumers confidence and keeps the market working.

Furthermore, it has been said that part of the intention of the law was to do some equalising between online and bricks and mortar businesses. Consumer returns are part of the costs of doing business online. If those costs were reduced due to laxer rules, then online selling would have an even greater cost advantage over bricks and mortar shops. (Though note the previous comment about customer confidence.)

Hence, I don't feel that there is anything immoral in any way in returning anything bought online for any reasons I choose to do so. (Note: I haven't actually returned something bought online yet, but I like having the option to and will advise others of their rights - even for dekos.)

[mcnach]

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1438717106' post='2836685']
It's a moral issue really, its not nice to take advantage over such fair policies.

I read in another thread on here that someone had bought a 'Deko' instrument from Thomann (for those who don't know, these are instruments for display only as they are sold as unplayable) and was going to send it back...because it didn't play well enough for him. How can that be right?

Its a great policy, but not one I would ever consider taking advantage of. If I have purchased an instrument, I have made the decision. Unless there instrument fundamentally has something wrong with it, I would never consider returning it. Effects pedals and small items, different kettle of fish really as they are much easier to ship, restock and sell again with no fuss, but instruments must be a pain for them.
[/quote]

I agree with every single word.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1438717903' post='2836699']
Hence, I don't feel that there is anything immoral in any way in returning anything bought online for any reasons I choose to do so. (Note: I haven't actually returned something bought online yet, but I like having the option to and will advise others of their rights - even for dekos.)
[/quote]

But the dekos were never meant to be playable... the fact that most were was a "bonus". So returning it because it didn't play well is just not right, even if you take advantage of "your rights"... Now phrase it as you wish.

[jezzaboy]

If I was spending the money you seem to be talking about spending, wouldn`t you be better going to a UK based dealer and trying the thing out for a couple of hours?

Take your own amp as well, Im sure they would be quite happy to let you have a play with it. I wouldn`t take the chance spending a lot of cash for a bass that I haven`t seen or played, even with distance selling regs.

[yorks5stringer]

Many Thomann B Stock items are in fact customer returns "may show slight traces of use".

[Sibob]

Just go and try a Fodera at Bass Gear?!?!?

Si

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1438721979' post='2836746']
But the dekos were never meant to be playable... the fact that most were was a "bonus". So returning it because it didn't play well is just not right, even if you take advantage of "your rights"... Now phrase it as you wish.
[/quote]

I do think it's right. In the same way that I can go in and check if any bass guitars in my local shop have lumps of gold stuck in the wood, and not buy them if they don't. And these are my legal rights (no quotes), not "rights" (with what the quotes imply). It's a fundamental precept of online buying that I have the right to return the goods for whatever reason I choose. And there's no way that I'm going to feel bad about doing so.

Given that the overwhelming majority of the Deko instruments are playable, and are therefore being mis-described by Thomann, if anyone is sad about people buying dekos and returning them if they aren't playable, Thomann are hardly blameless in that transaction.

BTW: You haven't supplied an evidenced counter-argument to what I wrote before, you've just disagreed with me. Hence, I don't need to rephrase anything, I think my previous post still stands.

[Jonnyboy Rotten]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1438731285' post='2836830']
Just go and try a Fodera at Bass Gear?!?!?

Si
[/quote]

I agree I think you should try at a UK dealer - however - and here is the rub for Thomann - if you try it at a UK dealer, you like it and the price is reasonable, I would say it is bad form to then clear off and get it from Thomann for several reasons. The main one being that the shop has given you time and the facility to try before you buy which means their overheads are likely more than Thomann so it would be a kick in the teeth for them.

The other reason is that basses of that quality are obviously good but there may be minor differences in the wood grain which you may or may not prefer so you would still be buying blind from Thomann in that sense.

However if you are reasonably sure you want to buy the Fodera anyway then there is no problem ordering it from Thomann and returning it if you don't like it.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1438744959' post='2836859']
I do think it's right. In the same way that I can go in and check if any bass guitars in my local shop have lumps of gold stuck in the wood, and not buy them if they don't. And these are my legal rights (no quotes), not "rights" (with what the quotes imply). It's a fundamental precept of online buying that I have the right to return the goods for whatever reason I choose. And there's no way that I'm going to feel bad about doing so.

Given that the overwhelming majority of the Deko instruments are playable, and are therefore being mis-described by Thomann, if anyone is sad about people buying dekos and returning them if they aren't playable, Thomann are hardly blameless in that transaction.

BTW: You haven't supplied an evidenced counter-argument to what I wrote before, you've just disagreed with me. Hence, I don't need to rephrase anything, I think my previous post still stands.
[/quote]


erm... "you win"?

hey, if you think it's right to return something that is sold as "not playable" because it wasn't playable... I have nothing to add.
You may not be contravening any rules, but you're exploiting a loophole and you know it. You're happy with it? Fine. I wouldn't do that but you live however you want to live

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1438770191' post='2837028']
erm... "you win"?

hey, if you think it's right to return something that is sold as "not playable" because it wasn't playable... I have nothing to add.
You may not be contravening any rules, but you're exploiting a loophole and you know it. You're happy with it? Fine. I wouldn't do that but you live however you want to live
[/quote]

I wish I had not written my above post at about 4:20am before leaving to catch a coach with no wi-fi, there was no opportunity to rewrite it before it was read and replied to. However, I'll continue on from where the conversation has reached.

While Thomann do state that these instruments are not suitable for music, it is widely known that the vast majority of them are perfectly usable for music. E.g. my taking my PJ to a bass bash and challenging people to find something wrong with it. Thomann's disclaimer does not match the facts. It is not, IMHO, unreasonable to expect that a newly purchased deko is more or less of the quality that instruments sold as dekos have been in the recent past. In the seemingly very rare case that a deko actually fit Thomann's disclaimer, then that would be a deko of near or actual unprecedented poor quality. And in that case I see nothing morally wrong with returning the instrument bought online should it not match typical deko quality. Actions speak louder than words, and Thomann's actions are that there is typically hardly anything wrong with them.

This makes it a very different situation from a case where Thomann had described the instruments as unsuitable for actual playing and they were actually unsuitable for playing. In which case I would agree with you that it would be strange to buy them and return them if the description fit.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1438779663' post='2837173']
I wish I had not written my above post at about 4:20am before leaving to catch a coach with no wi-fi, there was no opportunity to rewrite it before it was read and replied to. However, I'll continue on from where the conversation has reached.

While Thomann do state that these instruments are not suitable for music, it is widely known that the vast majority of them are perfectly usable for music. E.g. my taking my PJ to a bass bash and challenging people to find something wrong with it. Thomann's disclaimer does not match the facts. It is not, IMHO, unreasonable to expect that a newly purchased deko is more or less of the quality that instruments sold as dekos have been in the recent past. In the seemingly very rare case that a deko actually fit Thomann's disclaimer, then that would be a deko of near or actual unprecedented poor quality. And in that case I see nothing morally wrong with returning the instrument bought online should it not match typical deko quality. Actions speak louder than words, and Thomann's actions are that there is typically hardly anything wrong with them.

[b]This makes it a very different situation from a case where Thomann had described the instruments as unsuitable for actual playing and they were actually unsuitable for playing[/b]. In which case I would agree with you that it would be strange to buy them and return them if the description fit.
[/quote]


Seriously?
They were labeled as unsuitable for playing.
Instead of being happy if you take a gamble and find that you can, actually, play many of them, you think it's ok to complain when they don't play... despite them advertising clearly that this is the outcome you should expect.

Mindboggling.

So I sell bottled water and label it "not for human consumption".
100 people drink it and they are ok.
Person 101 gets a upset stomach, and complains... You think they have grounds for complaining?
Sure.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this one, my friend.

[bassix]

If you collect an item but buy through distance selling regulations does this effect the 14 day cool off period?

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1438781045' post='2837215']
Seriously?
They were labeled as unsuitable for playing.
Instead of being happy if you take a gamble and find that you can, actually, play many of them, you think it's ok to complain when they don't play... despite them advertising clearly that this is the outcome you should expect.

Mindboggling.

So I sell bottled water and label it "not for human consumption".
100 people drink it and they are ok.
Person 101 gets a upset stomach, and complains... You think they have grounds for complaining?
Sure.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this one, my friend.
[/quote]

I'm not complaining when they don't play, I'm taking advantage of my consumer rights to return the item if I decide I don't want to keep it. That's quite different from complaining.

Being able to return an item bought at a distance within the time limit and by the prescribed means without having to have any particular reason is the whole point of the consumer law concerning distance selling, which has even been strengthened recently. If you buy online you can't see exactly what you get until it arrives in the post. If you don't like what you see when you get it, you have the right to return this. This is nothing to do with the product being as described or anything like that, it's just giving the consumer to make the final decision as to whether they want to keep the item or not when they have it in their hands.

I have given quite a bit of explanation of why I feel this is an entirely reasonable standpoint. And clearly I'm not alone in thinking this as European law and UK law has been designed specifically to enable consumers to do exactly this. So, if you find that unacceptable, it's more than just me you have a problem with. See e.g. 3:23 in the following document, which is the office of fair trading advice to distance sellers. http://www.detini.gov.uk/distance_selling_guidance.pdf?rev=0

[quote]



[list]
[*]
[size=3]3.23 [/size][font=Univers][size=3]Where the DSRs give consumers the right to cancel an order, this right is unconditional and begins from the moment the contract is concluded. Unlike when buying from a shop, the first time that a consumer will typically have an opportunity to examine goods purchased by distance means is when they receive them. The DSRs give consumers who buy by distance means more rights than consumers who shop in person. When a distance consumer cancels a contract to which the cancellation provisions apply they are entitled to a refund of any money they have paid in relation to the contract even if the goods are not defective in any way. Please also see paragraph 3.46 for further information. [/size][/font]
[/list]
[/quote]

You may find it mind-boggling, but given that the law specifically enables these kind of returns, I don't think they can be claimed to be anything out of the ordinary.

EDIT: The above is for the DSRs, not the CCRs. However, the situation is now even more pro-consumer than it was with the new CCRs. I wonder why the old advice is still up on the government site.

@bassix - I believe that it does affect your rights if you pick up the item from the seller if you have an opportunity to examine the item before taking it away. I'm not sure that qualifies as distance selling, but it may take a lawyer to give a firm opinion. I have read somewhere that some shops encourage consumers to inspect goods on the premises as it reduces the consumer's rights.