*PLEASE DELETE*

[Jonnyboy Rotten]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1438781045' post='2837215']

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this one, my friend.
[/quote]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1438785647' post='2837298']
I'm not complaining when they don't play, I'm taking advantage of my consumer rights to return the item if I decide I don't want to keep it. That's quite different from complaining.

[/quote]

I can see both sides and to some extent I agree with both of you.

If you think of it like this:

Annoying Twit walks into a shop where they have a bargain bin for shop soiled items. Monsieur Twit has every right to pick up the items, handle them and put them back if he likes, perhaps in the hope of finding a better version or a less obviously soiled version.

If no better ones are found he can simply walk out the shop. If he finds a better one he is free to purchase it as normal.

With Thomann, what Mr Twist is doing is the distance shopping version of having a root around in the bargain bin. He will probably be happy with most deliveries but there may be some that he just doesn't want as they are too *shop soiled* etc.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with what AT is doing although he shouldn't be surprised if the odd one turns up that is *actually* unplayable.

If on the other hand most of the Dekos they sold were in fact unplayable, then IMHO it would be unethical for Mr Twit to keep ordering them and sending them back in the hope he would eventually be sent one that was passable, although I suspect Thomann would notice this behaviour and end up politely declining his business.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1438785647' post='2837298']
I'm not complaining when they don't play, I'm taking advantage of my consumer rights to return the item if I decide I don't want to keep it. That's quite different from complaining.

Being able to return an item bought at a distance within the time limit and by the prescribed means without having to have any particular reason is the whole point of the consumer law concerning distance selling, which has even been strengthened recently.
[/quote]

I never claimed it was not within your legal rights... only that it was, well... cheeky, in that situation.

I am sure I have at one point or another taken advantage of a situation where I'm not breaking any rule but I'm being cheeky nonetheless. I'm no angel!
But I will not try to convince people that I'm not being cheeky about it. That's all.

[Grangur]

[quote name='Jonnyboy Rotten' timestamp='1438765051' post='2836954']
I agree I think you should try at a UK dealer - however - and here is the rub for Thomann - if you try it at a UK dealer, you like it and the price is reasonable, I would say it is bad form to then clear off and get it from Thomann for several reasons. The main one being that the shop has given you time and the facility to try before you buy which means their overheads are likely more than Thomann so it would be a kick in the teeth for them.

The other reason is that basses of that quality are obviously good but there may be minor differences in the wood grain which you may or may not prefer so you would still be buying blind from Thomann in that sense.

However if you are reasonably sure you want to buy the Fodera anyway then there is no problem ordering it from Thomann and returning it if you don't like it.
[/quote]

I know this contradict everything I've said so far, but I've been looking at the Thomann site. They carry a good number of Fodera basses. If they're not prepared to take it back then they shouldn't list them.

So, really, you're right. On this ONE occasion.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Grangur

[Grangur]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1438779663' post='2837173']
I wish I had not written my above post at about 4:20am before leaving to catch a coach with no wi-fi, there was no opportunity to rewrite it before it was read and replied to. However, I'll continue on from where the conversation has reached.

While Thomann do state that these instruments are not suitable for music, it is widely known that the vast majority of them are perfectly usable for music. E.g. my taking my PJ to a bass bash and challenging people to find something wrong with it. Thomann's disclaimer does not match the facts. It is not, IMHO, unreasonable to expect that a newly purchased deko is more or less of the quality that instruments sold as dekos have been in the recent past. In the seemingly very rare case that a deko actually fit Thomann's disclaimer, then that would be a deko of near or actual unprecedented poor quality. And in that case I see nothing morally wrong with returning the instrument bought online should it not match typical deko quality. Actions speak louder than words, and Thomann's actions are that there is typically hardly anything wrong with them.

This makes it a very different situation from a case where Thomann had described the instruments as unsuitable for actual playing and they were actually unsuitable for playing. In which case I would agree with you that it would be strange to buy them and return them if the description fit.
[/quote]

Current listings say clearly "Decoration without warranty, without money back"

http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_b_450_black_progressiv_deko.htm

[mcnach]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1438797567' post='2837484']
Current listings say clearly "Decoration without warranty, without money back"

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_b_450_black_progressiv_deko.htm"]http://www.thomann.d...ressiv_deko.htm[/url]
[/quote]

I guess they got tired of people returning them

[R.I.P.]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1438781045' post='2837215']
So I sell bottled water and label it "not for human consumption".
100 people drink it and they are ok.
Person 101 gets a upset stomach, and complains... You think they have grounds for complaining?[/quote]

That pretty much say's it all

Edited August 5, 2015 by R.I.P.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1438797567' post='2837484']
Current listings say clearly "Decoration without warranty, without money back"

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_b_450_black_progressiv_deko.htm"]http://www.thomann.d...ressiv_deko.htm[/url]
[/quote]

Except that the consumer contract regulations state that people can return them. They can avoid comeback through the sale of goods act through wording and pricing, but they can't prevent people returning them.

[Kev]

So, just to be clear. If an instrument was described as 'Mint condition but headstock missing', and sure enough the bass arrived in perfect condition but with no headstock, you think it is morally right to be able to return the instrument because it has no headstock, without financial penalty to anyone but the seller?

If so, I'm speechless.

[Kev]

For clarity on my side, I know distance selling regulations means there is legally nothing wrong with doing this. But morally, whole different story for me.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1438795695' post='2837460']
I never claimed it was not within your legal rights... only that it was, well... cheeky, in that situation.

I am sure I have at one point or another taken advantage of a situation where I'm not breaking any rule but I'm being cheeky nonetheless. I'm no angel!
But I will not try to convince people that I'm not being cheeky about it. That's all.
[/quote]

Well, cheeky is quite different from morally wrong, which is what the previous discussion seemed to imply. (And morally wrong is what another poster has said.)

But, I think that a major part of what I have said hasn't been considered in the answers, and this is the role of Thomann in all this. I'll explain. Fundamentally, I may be cheeky if I use the CCRs to return a deko bass, but Thomann have created the whole situation and IMHO have been even cheekier than I have. IMHO, they're playing a game with the dekos, and that makes it IMHO entirely fair, reasonable, and moral to use the CCRs as they were intended to be used.

Thomann are not a two bit operation, they are run as a business and they know what they are doing. Hence, they know what they are doing when they describe these instruments as being decoration only, not suitable for music even though they aren't. E.g. instruments that are more broken tend to be sold at the flea market where people can examine them in person. If the instruments were all not suitable for playing, then they most likely wouldn't sell at the prices that they are selling at. Look at the start of the deko thread. Everyone assumed that they would have (e.g.) serious neck issues and people such as myself wouldn't touch them with bargepoles. And the same deko instruments stuck around forever. Once word got around that they were OK, they started selling, and now they often sell like hotcakes. Note that this is not just word of mouth outside Thomann's control, some dekos have reviews posted, saying that there was pretty much nothing wrong with them. Note also that Thomann vet all reviews before they go up (which is why reviews often take some days to be posted.) Now consider that Thomann say 'without warranty, without money back'. Read literally, this is misleading consumers as to their rights (though I'm not sure this is what they mean), as while their wording will remove rights under the sale of goods act (and/or European equivalent law), they can't legally remove buyer's rights to refunds under the CCRs. And because most dekos are fine for playing, Thomann are misdescribing their products. Again, we can ask the question whether it's a bit cheeky for an online seller to misdescribe their products with the intention of reducing consumer rights. People aren't complaining about that because they prices have been reduced as well, but this is clearly a complicated situation. Given that Thomann are themselves being cheeky and playing a consumer rights game, I don't think there is anything immoral in a buyer playing their side of that game, which is to use their CCRs rights which can't be voided by Thomann's word games. (Though, the 'No warranty, no money back' might be interpretable as them attempting to do that. I don't think they would do that, but it does look odd.)

I've just seen the analogy of the water seller, and I'll reform that analogy to more closely match the deko situation. First, people aren't complaining when the water described as not fit for human consumption gives them a tummy ache. What people are doing is noticing the cheap water, opening the cap, giving it a good sniff, and deciding to buy the water if it smells OK. The rejected deko isn't a tummy ache, it's more like a situation where someone takes the cap off a bottle of water, finds that this one actually smells of poo, and deciding not to buy it. The 'return' part of the process is because with distance purchases, that's how someone decides not to buy something after they've been able to sniff the water and see if it smells sweet or not. You and others have interpreted the rejection as a 'complaint'. It's not, it's just a decision not to purchase. Because of the mechanics of online/distance purchases, it requires a return as the consumer doesn't get to test the item (sniff the water) until it arrives at their home.

Now to continue the analogy, imagine that the water seller has received a review of the water 'even though it says not fit for human consumption, I bought some and it was absolutely fine.' and they have pinned that up in their water shop where people can see it. (Equivalent to Thomann's vetted reviews.) In that case, the seller becomes more culpable if someone does get ill. (Even though I removed the illness from my version of the analogy.) The market for dekos, particularly Thomann's role in it, is more complicated than people are portraying it in this thread, which is creating a lot of straw man arguments and analogies.

Also, there was an analogy about basses advertised as having a missing headstock, and then someone returned it because it has a missing headstock. If the bass actually does have a missing headstock, then yes it would be odd to return the bass on that basis. However, that is a very different situation from the market for dekos, as described above. The sale of a bass with a missing headstock is a fair and honest one. The item being sold was described accurately. Thomann aren't describing their items accurately, as well as also not being straightforward in other ways as described above. It's a game, and Thomann are playing it too. They are not blameless innocents in the deko market.

EDIT: BTW, I won't be replying to this thread before I get back from London tomorrow. Trying to write answers while on coaches is not only difficult, it's burnt through enough data costs through using my phone as a wifi hotspot, that I probably could have bought one of the cheaper dekos.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Annoying Twit

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1438816875' post='2837754']
Just out of interest, where do the regulations sit regarding this?....

"Return Policy - Goods (except for custom made instruments) can be returned within 7 days of delivery. The amount paid will be refunded minus a 15% handling fee. It is not possible to return custom made instruments."
[/quote]

It is not legal to charge a 15% handling fee for anything returned under the CCRs. The refund must be all of the costs (including delivery) that were originally charged. Unless the goods have been handled more than is necessary for the purposes of evaluation.

Custom made instruments cannot be returned under the CCRs.

Both of these points are covered here: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-contracts-regulations

[kodiakblair]

I notice it says the seller covers return if faulty but it first says to be aware who pays return if you change your mind, not you'll note the seller is
not legally obliged to pay return.

If your deko arrives with a busted headstock I'd say it was faulty but if it's merely unplayable as it's stated to be you could be paying to return it.
as the Thomann free return policy applies only in Germany.

More important is the OP will have to spring for postage and insurance for trial of the £4K Fodera.

Edited August 6, 2015 by kodiakblair

[Muppet]

Moral issues aside, under distance selling you can return anything you've bought within the cooling off period, I thought. You don't have to give any reason whatsoever for returning.

[Kev]

[quote name='Muppet' timestamp='1438844914' post='2837831']
Moral issues aside, under distance selling you can return anything you've bought within the cooling off period, I thought. You don't have to give any reason whatsoever for returning.
[/quote]

True, however it is just the idea of returning a bass, sold as unplayable and for decoration only, because it does not play as well as you would have hoped, that I struggle with. If you decide you don't want it for decoration, or you don't like how it looks in real life e.t.c. then they are perfectly fine reasons to return it, if indeed you choose to give a reason.

Thomann have lumped together all of these instruments, some with big issues and others with something as small a a scratch, rather than bothering taking the time to separate out the instruments into graded categories. I think it is a stretch to say they are misselling the instruments, to say the least. Some people get bargains, some do not. It's a gamble for the price, and you shouldn't be refunded on a lost gamble! Otherwise, I have got an awful lot of lottery tickets I need refunding

Edited August 6, 2015 by Kev

[Muppet]

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1438845361' post='2837837']
True, however it is just the idea of returning a bass, sold as unplayable and for decoration only, because it does not play as well as you would have hoped that I struggle with.
[/quote]

Absolutely and I agree with you. I struggle with the whole 'I've decided I don't like it now so I'm sending it back' principle, but that's maybe because I have normally done all my research up front, so all I'm assessing is the quality of the delivered product versus what was expected.

If I order and receive an unplayable guitar and I get the guitar that I ordered and it's unplayable, err, I've got what I wanted!

[mcnach]

[quote name='Muppet' timestamp='1438845684' post='2837841']
If I order and receive an unplayable guitar and I get the guitar that I ordered and it's unplayable, err, I've got what I wanted!
[/quote]

Not necessarily what you wanted, as illustrated earlier , but you did get what you ordered

[Jonnyboy Rotten]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1438797309' post='2837481']
So, really, you're right. On this ONE occasion.
[/quote]

Doesn't happen often so make the most of it!

[Lw.]

Oh dear, all this boring morality talk has upset the OP (I don't blame him, it was quite tedious).

Let us know how you get on at bass gear; I really like the look of the Monarch Standard 4 PJ they've got, ying yang without the paint job.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Lw.

[Cosmo Valdemar]

[quote name='joshua.harris1234' timestamp='1438707067' post='2836592']
Please delete this thread, don't have time for some people's answers. Btw, leave me alone, I'm going to bass gear, I only wanted to ask. How am I supposed to try something out when it's not at any store in UK except for Bass Gear? They'll probably go out of stock anyway because it is a Fodera. So thanks a lot for some people's answers on this forum. Those of you who were kind enough to give a decent reply (even though how stupid the question sounds I admit), thank you.
[/quote]

[URL=http://s903.photobucket.com/user/ben_merrick/media/handbags.jpg.html][IMG]http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac238/ben_merrick/handbags.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[tauzero]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1438770191' post='2837028']
hey, if you think it's right to return something that is sold as "not playable" because it wasn't playable... I have nothing to add.
You may not be contravening any rules, but you're exploiting a loophole and you know it. You're happy with it? Fine. I wouldn't do that but you live however you want to live
[/quote]

But if you wanted to buy something for a purpose which wasn't its primary purpose, if you did so in a bricks and mortar shop, you'd be able to check how suitable it would be for that alternative purpose, whereas online you can't. So if I wanted to buy a comb to play comb and tissue paper (combing my hair is a ship that sailed a long time ago), I could check it out in a shop, but if I could only get it online then I'd need to be able to return it if it didn't suit my alternative purpose.

[Grangur]

[quote name='Cosmo Valdemar' timestamp='1438865219' post='2838178']
[url="http://s903.photobucket.com/user/ben_merrick/media/handbags.jpg.html"][/url]
[/quote]

In fairness, we did lay in to him a bit I guess.

[Happy Jack]

Just be grateful he wasn't talking about ordering a Rickenbacker ...

[Roland Rock]

Wow! This thread has gone properly tits up since I last visited!😂

Edited August 6, 2015 by Roland Rock