Modular Rig Configuration

[BigRedX]

I love my current big rig - it sounds exactly how I want it, but for a lot of gigs it's simply overkill and The Terrortones have recently down-sized their transport to something smaller a cheaper to run so it's not always practical to take, and we don't always need to supply a full bass rig.

So I want to create a modular system that can be used can be used in a variety of situations, depending on the size of venue and what other gear we will be able to share.


[b]RIG 1 - to use with other people's gear[/b]

A 3U rack with a removable top housing my Bass Pod, wireless system and a lightweight amp. This can be used with supplied amps/cabs as required. I already have the rack case, Pod and wireless system, so I'm just looking for a decent small amp that will fit into a 1 or 1.5 U space.

The Pod does all the tone shaping so the amp doesn't really ned to have any functions other than an on/off switch (ideally on the front panel so it's easy to switch off when I only need the Pod because I'm using someone else's complete amp and cabs) and a volume control. Amp needs to be able to run into 8 or 4 Ohm loads. It also needs to be easily rack-mountable.

I'm currently looking at the TecAmp Puma 500 or 900 (my main amp is a Tech Soundsystems Black Cat so I'm biased towards something from the same company) or the Demeter Minnie which I believe you can have made in a 1U to special order.


[b]RIG 2 - The Small Rig[/b]

The rack from Rig one plus a single 8 Ohm light-weight cab Ideally no bigger than 22 x 16 x 16 inches (and TBH the smaller the better) and with whatever amp I have chosen above be loud enough for on-stage monitoring purposes.


[b]RIG 3 - The Medium Sized Rig[/b]

As Rig 2 but with a second (identical) cab. I have absolutely no real idea about lightweight cabs. There are plenty of names mentioned often enough here - Barefaced, TKS and Bergantino - are there any others I should consider and which particular cabs from each manufacturer should I be interested in?


[b]RIG 4 - The Big Rig[/b]

This will be my existing amp rack - Tech Soundsystems Black Cat amp, Bass Pod 2 XT Pro, Peterson Strobo Rack, Thumpitator and wireless system - with the two light weight cabs from Rig 3 (and one day if I'm feeling particularly rich and or stupid, another 2 identical cabs as the Black cat is capable of driving two 4 Ohm loads).


My big concern with the lightweight cabs is that it appears to be very easy to end up with a rig that is top-heavy. My current big rack weighs 28Kg and I expect the small rack to be around half of that by the time it's fully loaded with all the gear, and therefore I'm a bit concerned that when it's stacked on top of two small cabs whose combined weight is about the same as the rack it's going to be unstable.

Sound-wise I'd say that 90% of my sound is dictated by my basses (Warwick Star Bass and Gus G3) and the Bass Pod. For me the amp and cabs are simply about being heard on stage and where there is no PA support for the bass in the audience. To get and idea of my current bass sound have a listen to [url=http://terrortones.bandcamp.com]our most recent EP[/url] which is my current big rig with the EBS cabs mic'd up.

So is this proposed new setup sensible? All suggestions for amps and cabs gratefully received.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1438950758' post='2838921']
My big concern with the lightweight cabs is that it appears to be very easy to end up with a rig that is top-heavy.
[/quote]

Top heavy doesnt necessarily mean unstable, I mean compared to say a big PA speaker suspended on a stand which weights a fraction of the speaker weight, your bass rig is going to be very stable indeed.

Edited August 7, 2015 by bassman7755

[BigRedX]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1438951949' post='2838938']
Top heavy doesnt necessarily mean unstable, I mean compared to say a big PA speaker suspended on a stand which weights a fraction of the speaker weight, your bass rig is going to be very stable indeed.
[/quote]

IME the tripod legs of PA stands extend wider than the PA cabs themselves which helps to offset the fact that all the "weight" as at the top of the stand, although with modern PA cabs the cabs aren't normally that much heavier.

I'm just worried that with some of the smaller lightweight can solutions being narrower than 19" I'm going to end up with a rig that is not only heaviest at the top, but also widest at that point too.

Is anyone here using a rig like this and how has it been for stability?

[alexclaber]

A big heavy rack on top of a lightweight stack will be more stable than a lightweight amp on the same stack - the heavy rack ties the stack down and makes it much harder to knock over. And the chance of knocking over a lightweight stack is very low - has anyone ever done this or seen it happen?

We designed the Big Baby 2 to be used vertically in singles and pairs and stacked horizontally in threes or fours. 'Unfortunately' we've yet to have anyone need more than two!

[tauzero]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1438950758' post='2838921']
My big concern with the lightweight cabs is that it appears to be very easy to end up with a rig that is top-heavy. My current big rack weighs 28Kg and I expect the small rack to be around half of that by the time it's fully loaded with all the gear, and therefore I'm a bit concerned that when it's stacked on top of two small cabs whose combined weight is about the same as the rack it's going to be unstable.
[/quote]

What you need to consider is how far the stack would need to rock to put the CoG of the whole lot outside the footprint of the bottom cab, as that's when it would topple. A couple of 1x12s around the size of the Berg CN112 or AE112 form a stack similar to a lightweight 4x10 in size and weight. Are you using a 4U rack at the moment? What's the weight distribution like in it - even, bottom-heavy, top-heavy?

As for actual recommendations - I'm very happy with my combination of Tecamp Puma 900 and two Berg AE112s. If there's another Nottingham Bass Bash, I'll bring them up .

[mrtcat]

Barefaced retro 2x10? Looks like it would stack very well and I'm sure 4 of them together would level a small industrial estate.

[Oopsdabassist]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1438980340' post='2839232']
Barefaced retro 2x10? Looks like it would stack very well and I'm sure 4 of them together would level a small industrial estate.
[/quote]

I lolled,
I also happen to agree, a couple of retro 2x10 could cope with just about anything!

[BigRedX]

I was looking at the Retro 10, but according to the Barefaced site the impedance is either 4 or 12 Ohms. Unless that's a typo, that won't be suitable for me.

[chris_b]

2 12ohm cabs looks like 6 ohms to an amp.

That's fine for Puma amps.

[discreet]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1438987030' post='2839305']
I was looking at the Retro 10, but according to the Barefaced site the impedance is either 4 or 12 Ohms. Unless that's a typo, that won't be suitable for me.
[/quote]
[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1438992331' post='2839335']
2 12ohm cabs looks like 6 ohms to an amp. That's fine for Puma amps.
[/quote]

Yes, in practice it's not an issue at all. As said, 2 X 12ohms = 6ohms and 3 X 12ohms = 4ohms. 1X12ohms = er... 12ohms, so you'd get about 2/3 the power you'd get through an 8ohm cab, but again not an issue as the cabs are very efficient.

Edited August 8, 2015 by discreet

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1438954823' post='2838962']
I'm just worried that with some of the smaller lightweight can solutions being narrower than 19" I'm going to end up with a rig that is not only heaviest at the top, but also widest at that point too.
[/quote]

Unless your playing on a cruise ship in a severe storm or during an earthquake youve honestly got nothing to worry about IMO.

[alexclaber]

I like your EP! What are your EBS cabs and how were they miced for that? How were any tweeters set? Do you currently DI or mic for gigs (and if you mic would you rather DI if it sounded as good?)?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1439023364' post='2839416']
I like your EP! What are your EBS cabs and how were they miced for that? How were any tweeters set? Do you currently DI or mic for gigs (and if you mic would you rather DI if it sounded as good?)?
[/quote]

Thanks Alex! The cabs are EBS Proline 2x10 and 4x10. I don't know what mic was used but it looked like a large diaphragm a couple of inches away from the speaker in the 2x10 that was furthest from the bass port. The engineer spent a good 10 minutes listening to each speaker before deciding on that configuration. The tweeters are on about 1/4 of the pot travel, which is just enough to add a bit of sparkle to the top end. IMO the EBS tweeters are a bit harsh for the sounds I like. On my other cabs (Dr Bass) I have the tweeters on full to get the same sound as the EBS.

For gigs I nearly always DI post EQ from the DI socket on the amp. Pretty much every PA engineer who has expressed an opinion has loved the sound and when I've had a chance to get out front during the sound check it always sounds just like my rig but louder, so I've been happy. I've had the cabs mic'd a couple of times at the bigger gigs we played, but haven't been able to tell if it has made any difference.

I'm happy to DI so long as the sound coming from the PA matches what I get out of the rig. We've spent a lot of time working on the guitar and bass sounds, so that there is already plenty of separation between the two. We just want the PA to make them louder (if necessary).

[indiegrungesound]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1439029167' post='2839464']


Thanks Alex! The cabs are EBS Proline 2x10 and 4x10. I don't know what mic was used but it looked like a large diaphragm a couple of inches away from the speaker in the 2x10 that was furthest from the bass port. The engineer spent a good 10 minutes listening to each speaker before deciding on that configuration. The tweeters are on about 1/4 of the pot travel, which is just enough to add a bit of sparkle to the top end. IMO the EBS tweeters are a bit harsh for the sounds I like. On my other cabs (Dr Bass) I have the tweeters on full to get the same sound as the EBS.

For gigs I nearly always DI post EQ from the DI socket on the amp. Pretty much every PA engineer who has expressed an opinion has loved the sound and when I've had a chance to get out front during the sound check it always sounds just like my rig but louder, so I've been happy. I've had the cabs mic'd a couple of times at the bigger gigs we played, but haven't been able to tell if it has made any difference.

I'm happy to DI so long as the sound coming from the PA matches what I get out of the rig. We've spent a lot of time working on the guitar and bass sounds, so that there is already plenty of separation between the two. We just want the PA to make them louder (if necessary).
[/quote]
This might sound daft, but would it not be possible to swap the EBS 4x10" for another EBS 2x10"? What you'd lose in air/sound displacement(Yes, I've probably got one of Mr Calber's technical terms wrong! Sorry!) you'd make up for in lighter gear, whilst still having plenty of amp headroom surely!

Incidentally, I now toying with the idea of changing my 2 1x12" cabs for a 2x10" & a 4x10" stack, so make of that what you will!

Edited August 8, 2015 by indiegrungesound

[Kiwi]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1438987030' post='2839305']
I was looking at the Retro 10, but according to the Barefaced site the impedance is either 4 or 12 Ohms. Unless that's a typo, that won't be suitable for me.[/quote]
fEARful F112 cabs are 8ohm and 20kg each. Very stackable and tiltback for tiny pub stages.

Just make the rig as modular as possible by having stackable self contained units that can be added as your stage size increases. A load of Bergantino IP112ER cabs would be the simplest solution.

[JTUK]

If you are running a 210 with a 410 with a powerful amp, split the impedence. But to do that, you'll probably need an amp that will run down to 2 ohms..
So the 410/212 will be 4 and the 210 will be 8....that way the 210 doesn't get the full whack the 410/212 does.


But you'll need a decent amp to do that.

[Guest bassman7755]

To the OP, if you still need convincing about the stability of rigs with lightweight cabs ...

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/267462-i-know-its-only-a-pub-but/"]http://basschat.co.u...only-a-pub-but/[/url]

Edited August 9, 2015 by bassman7755

[BigRedX]

Thanks to everyone who has offered advice. I'm pretty close to deciding what I'm going to do.

There seems to be a lot of TecAmp Puma users here but is anyone using the Demeter Minnie?

[discreet]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1439316981' post='2841879']
...is anyone using the Demeter Minnie?
[/quote]

I believe Billy Apple has recently acquired one.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1439316981' post='2841879']
There seems to be a lot of TecAmp Puma users here but is anyone using the Demeter Minnie?
[/quote]
[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1439320199' post='2841930']
I believe Billy Apple has recently acquired one.
[/quote]

And so have I

Demeter plus Midget, Compact, or both - my own modular rig:

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1439031985' post='2839502']
Just make the rig as modular as possible by having stackable self contained units that can be added as your stage size increases. A load of Bergantino IP112ER cabs would be the simplest solution.
[/quote] good luck finding a load of them!

[LukeFRC]

actually seeing the big baby has been mentioned....

Ditch the amps and have your POD/wireless system box driving a couple of them Barefaced powered PA cabs things...add as many as you need to get loud enough

[JTUK]

I use a Demeter..it is ultra clean. As it stands, I doubt many could or would use a sound that clean.

My amp goes from TH500 which is gritty but if being really picky, probably a bit too processed.
If it had the headroom, I'd use it more.
DB750. This is the DB's by name and nature and sits some way left of the TH500. It stays purer, has
volume in spades and amps very well. Just an all round class amp and my fave
Demeter As I say, ultra clean..and whilst the amp is very very good in its balance and headroom,
I haven't found a sound I'm 'loving'. So much to really rate about it but the sound is a tad too clinical at this stage

I am thinking about putting a TH pedal inline to mix it up a bit, but I really don't want to do that..
What is the point of a clean signal and then go through a cheap, by comparison.. pedal in front of it.

If you need break-up..I prefer something a little more 'organic'

Really impressed wit the amp so far though and I'm sure I'll work it out.

Edited August 12, 2015 by JTUK

[alexclaber]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1439029167' post='2839464']
Thanks Alex! The cabs are EBS Proline 2x10 and 4x10. I don't know what mic was used but it looked like a large diaphragm a couple of inches away from the speaker in the 2x10 that was furthest from the bass port. The engineer spent a good 10 minutes listening to each speaker before deciding on that configuration. The tweeters are on about 1/4 of the pot travel, which is just enough to add a bit of sparkle to the top end. IMO the EBS tweeters are a bit harsh for the sounds I like. On my other cabs (Dr Bass) I have the tweeters on full to get the same sound as the EBS.

For gigs I nearly always DI post EQ from the DI socket on the amp. Pretty much every PA engineer who has expressed an opinion has loved the sound and when I've had a chance to get out front during the sound check it always sounds just like my rig but louder, so I've been happy. I've had the cabs mic'd a couple of times at the bigger gigs we played, but haven't been able to tell if it has made any difference.

I'm happy to DI so long as the sound coming from the PA matches what I get out of the rig. We've spent a lot of time working on the guitar and bass sounds, so that there is already plenty of separation between the two. We just want the PA to make them louder (if necessary).
[/quote]

For anyone else reading, I did reply to this but got moderated - I'm not so rude as to ask a question and then not answer it!

[BigRedX]

Any reason for the removal of Alex's reply?

He's been nothing but helpful in this thread and I'm sure that I would have found whatever he said useful.