DJs at Festivals? WTF?

[Bilbo]

I understand the feelings of those who post in favour of this model of working but I can't help feeling that 'you can fool some of the people all of the time.....'. If these people are making their own music before 'playing' it (or 'mixing' it?) live, surely that is the same as Beyonce dancing to backing tapes, isn't it? It is music, that I have no trouble seeing that. it may even be theatre. The bit I struggle with is whether it is 'live music' in any meaningful sense. Obviously, it works for the fans of that genre who will be completely unaffected by the b*ll*cks I am talking..

NB All of the 'I's' in here should leave no-one in any doubt that this is the opinion of an individual who doesn't 'get' a genre, not an attempt to define that genre. If you disagree, feel free to say so. It really doesn't matter.

[BigRedX]

What is so special about live music?

[Skol303]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1439284424' post='2841464']
If these people are making their own music before 'playing' it (or 'mixing' it?) live, surely that is the same as Beyonce dancing to backing tapes, isn't it?... The bit I struggle with is whether it is 'live music' in any meaningful sense.
[/quote]

Good question! There are certainly highly varying degrees of ‘liveness’ when it comes to performing electronic music.

At one of the scale you have DJs using digital mixers and people performing with laptops. Both allow music to be created ‘on the fly’, but it largely involves stitching together ready-made loops in real time and playing some synth lines or adding some percussive elements over the top. So it’s more akin to live mixing than traditional musicianship. That said it still requires a lot of skill of the ‘spinning plates’ variety to make sure everything fits together and doesn’t fall apart.

A step up from this is perhaps something like ‘controllerism’, as championed by people like Jeremy Ellis - [i]who also doubles as a jazz pianist…[/i] Easiest if I explain what he does using a clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXwVQADYcx8

He's obviously 'playing' ready-made sounds, but he's playing them using a digital instrument. If this isn't musicianship, then I'd argue then anyone playing a synth-keyboard or virtual piano isn't a musician either.

And then you have people who haul a bunch of gear on stage and perform everything ‘live’. People like Roni Size and Fingathing who perform drum’n’bass using a a traditional drum kit and upright bass; Disclosure - two young drummers from Surrey who belt out house music; Squarepusher - the modern-day equivalent of a one man band. And so on.

TL/DR: There’s a lot more to DJing and performing electronic music than playing ready-made loops and other people's records (partly because nobody really plays records anymore ).[size=4] [font=Helvetica]Whether synthesised sounds count as being ‘authentic’ in comparison to analogue instruments that requiring plucking, strumming, bowing or blowing is another discussion.[/font][/size]

[Bilbo]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1439287955' post='2841500'] What is so special about live music? [/quote]

It's a beautiful thing.

[BigRedX]

Music that you like is a beautiful thing. I still don't see what makes it being played live any more special.

[Rich]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1439294605' post='2841587']
Music that you like is a beautiful thing. I still don't see what makes it being played live any more special.
[/quote]
Hard to describe, but for me it makes it somehow more alive. Listening to great recorded music is a wonderful thing, but seeing and hearing it being performed, there right in front of you, makes it more... personal?
I'm making a dreadful job of this explanation

[Jacqueslemac]

Maybe it's the difference between a recital and a performance? Watching music played live is a more interactive experience than listening to a recording of it (even if it's a recording of a live performance).

A local venue to me advertises live music every Friday - and often it's karaoke.

[TimR]

It's the DJ who is performing live. Not the music.

I'm guessing that most cover bands don't actually play 'live' music, they play carefully rehearsed copies of something someone else has created. Although the music is being reconstructed by humans so there is the potential for anything to happen, even the rehearsed copy may not be what you're expecting, even if it's what the musicians are intending (although it's not always what they're expecting either )

.

Edited August 11, 2015 by TimR

[synthaside]

While i don't understand "laptop operatives" i think there is possibly a parallel bar to the dad rock crap covers band or even the monkeys. The fact is that there are good and bad covers bands, there is skill in mixing stuff and doing it live but the same way you or I would never pre-record a set and press play then jump around with our bass not plugged in miming , a real DJ or real artist's performing crossover music is always worth seeing .

It may be not your taste, but for me some pendulum is the best way to illustrate .... these are people who do DJ sets and the the rare occurrence they will play it live after all they wrote it / put it together ;-).

[url="https://youtu.be/hgTRHFqwI18?t=21"]https://youtu.be/hgTRHFqwI18?t=21[/url]

Edited August 11, 2015 by synthaside

[Jacqueslemac]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1439299668' post='2841651']I'm guessing that most cover bands don't actually play 'live' music, they play carefully rehearsed copies of something someone else has created. Although the music is being reconstructed by humans so there is the potential for anything to happen, even the rehearsed copy may not be what you're expecting, even if it's what the musicians are intending (although it's not always what they're expecting either )[/quote]

Most cover bands do play live music. It may not be original, but it is live, as opposed to recorded and then played back.

[Dad3353]

The general 'old codger' grumpiness has already been aptly expressed in fine poetic style by honed word-smiths. The subject is not identical, but not a million miles away from the lack of appreciation of the musicianship and skills of DJ's, amongst other performers. Whether one [i]likes [/i]the genre or not is a totally different subject, but, as regards respect for talent, I offer ...

[i]Now look at them yo-yo's that's the way you do it[/i]
[i]You play the guitar on the MTV[/i]
[i]That ain't workin' that's the way you do it[/i]
[i]Money for nothin' and chicks for free[/i]
[i]Now that ain't workin' that's the way you do it[/i]
[i]Lemme tell ya them guys ain't dumb[/i]
[i]Maybe get a blister on your little finger[/i]
[i]Maybe get a blister on your thumb[/i]

[i]We gotta install microwave ovens[/i]
[i]Custom kitchen deliveries[/i]
[i]We gotta move these refrigerators[/i]
[i]We gotta move these colour TV's[/i]

[i]See the little faggot with the earring and the makeup[/i]
[i]Yeah buddy that's his own hair[/i]
[i]That little faggot got his own jet airplane[/i]
[i]That little faggot he's a millionaire[/i]

[i]We gotta install microwave ovens[/i]
[i]Custom kitchens deliveries[/i]
[i]We gotta move these refrigerators[/i]
[i]We gotta move these colour TV's[/i]

[i]I shoulda learned to play the guitar[/i]
[i]I shoulda learned to play them drums[/i]
[i]Look at that mama, she got it stickin' in the camera[/i]
[i]Man we could have some fun[/i]
[i]And he's up there, what's that? Hawaiian noises?[/i]
[i]Bangin' on the bongoes like a chimpanzee[/i]
[i]That ain't workin' that's the way you do it[/i]
[i]Get your money for nothin' get your chicks for free[/i]

[i]We gotta install microwave ovens[/i]
[i]Custom kitchen deliveries[/i]
[i]We gotta move these refrigerators[/i]
[i]We gotta move these colour TV's, Lord[/i]

[i]Now that ain't workin' that's the way you do it[/i]
[i]You play the guitar on the MTV[/i]
[i]That ain't workin' that's the way you do it[/i]
[i]Money for nothin' and your chicks for free[/i]
[i]Money for nothin' and chicks for free[/i]

This could be said of any db players, jazz giants or street buskers, pub-rock groups, on electric or acoustic instruments; even classical concert pit players.. It could , of course, be applied to DJ's, too, with their turntables and incessant scratching. That ain't 'working'; I mean not like a [i]real [/i]job, now, is it..? No-one is innocent.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Dad3353

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1439243904' post='2841317']
If I posted a similar thread about how blues rock was a load of old crap that wasn't proper music it would be locked inside of about three minutes.
[/quote]

We've got one of those. It seems to be doing OK so far!
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/267566-blues-rock-bass-player-wanted-ad-unbelievable/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/267566-blues-rock-bass-player-wanted-ad-unbelievable/[/url]

[Bilbo]

There has always been an argument against 'manufactured' music, music that is put together artificially in a studio setting of some sort and then released as the work of a composer and/or performer. The argument has always revolved around the question 'can they do it live'? As I recall, Rush always worked with the philosophy that they needed to be able to reproduce whatever they recorded in a live setting. They did, however, indulge themselves with the occasional 'studio only' thing (I think 'Losing It' was one of these). I know Queen have struggled over the years to deliver a convincing 'Bohemian Rhapsody' live due to the layered nature of the recording. Rush and Queen would never just turn up at a gig and play the record to the waiting throng!! Miming/playing to bakcing tapes live has historically been sneered at as a 'sell out' and 'fake'.

The DJs that have been described here seem to be allowed (?) to 'create' something virtually in their studio space and then just turn up at the gig and press 'play'. I get that there is some sort of layering going on etc and some sort of real time process but that all sounds a bit like a justification to me. Producers, composers and engineers are highly skilled people, in spite of their reputation as just control freaks etc but making a live performance out of producing and engineering seems a bit odd to me. The audience for this stuff clearly doesn't share these values. Why should they?

[Twigman]

Our guitarist is 1/3 of Above and Beyond.
they headline lots of festivals (Glatonbury/Creamfields Ibiza etc etc) as DJs.
All 3 of them are competent musicians and excellent producers.
They earn their living DJing all over the world.
They can do proper live music too as this performance of acoustic arrangements of their club songs demonstrates:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUTlKqSO-I&spfreload=10"]https://www.youtube....-I&spfreload=10[/url]

Edited August 11, 2015 by Twigman

[crez5150]

What ab out DJ as part of the band a la Jamiroquai/De la Soul/soul to Soul etc.... I've played with a few bands where this is part of the line up and definitely adds to the songs

[Skol303]

[size=4][quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1439304148' post='2841702']
The DJs that have been described here seem to be allowed (?) to 'create' something virtually in their studio space and then just turn up at the gig and press 'play'. I get that there is some sort of layering going on etc and some sort of real time process but that all sounds a bit like a justification to me.
[/quote][/size]
[color=#282828][font=Helvetica]
[size=4]Hi Rob… have you checked out some of the YouTube links posted in this thread? Eg. the examples of scratch DJs; the jazz pianist turned ‘controllerism’ player?[/size][/font][/color]

[font="Helvetica"][color="#282828"]They’re doing quite a lot more than just turning up at gigs and pressing ‘play’. I don’t think anyone could hope to match their performances without investing many years of practice. Certainly equal to learning a conventional musical instrument.[/color][/font]

[color=#282828][font=Helvetica][size=4]Running a gig from a laptop or a digital ‘record’ deck, stitching together ready-made loops, is a different kettle of fish, granted. I agree that those methods are much less about musicianship and far more concerned with ‘live mixing’. Something quite different and 'less [/size][/font][/color][font="Helvetica"][color="#282828"]skilful' in a dextrous, musical sense.[/color][/font]
[color=#282828][font=Helvetica]
[size=4]But you’re right that it’s also about audience expectations. People who turn up to see a DJ or dance music act are primarily interested in the music itself - not the methods by which it’s made [i](I am of course grossly generalising…!).[/i] It’s very different to other music forms, where the musicians themselves tend to be the focus.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=Helvetica]
[size=4]Hence the old slogan: “Faceless techno b*******!” [i](rhymes with scallops)[/i] [/size][/font][/color]

[font="Helvetica"][color="#282828"]It’s a different set of rules by which EDM ‘musicians’ play by. But the end result tends to be a room/field/beach full of people dancing their butts off. Which is surely the goal of most musical performances?[/color][/font]

[discreet]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1439304637' post='2841706']
Our guitarist is 1/3 of Above and Beyond.
[/quote]

I find that most bizarre and at the same time, very cool indeed.
As well as being the Rock God everyone knows and loves on here, I'm also a secret trance fan and A&B are HUGE!!

[EBS_freak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Aa6lJPa5FQ

Check out the scratching on this. Probably better sense of timing than all of us... especially when he's scratching pitch and rhythm in sympathy with the original.

[Twigman]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1439305402' post='2841718']
I find that most bizarre and at the same time, very cool indeed.

[/quote]
Tony and I have been doing stuff together for 30 years! Long before A&B was even dreamed of.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1439304148' post='2841702']
....Rush and Queen would never just turn up at a gig and play the record to the waiting throng!!
[/quote]

But that is exactly what Queen used to do when they performed Bohemian Rhapsody!

When it came to the middle 'Operatic' section they all left the stage & just played the recorded version, then came back on for the rockier end section.
Saw them do it in Cardiff in 1977, and it's also what they do on the 'Live Killers' live album.

[TimR]

I very much doubt that a large proportion of the audience know or even care how the music is produced. If they did, they wouldn't be there, they'd be watching bands.

There's an audience for all sorts of performance. If someone wants to stand in a field while a tiny speck jumps up and down and shouts on a stage with big TV screens, lasers and other lighting effects going on, that's up to them.

I became bored of all that in the late 80s pretty much soon after it all started.

Edited August 11, 2015 by TimR

[RhysP]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1439306671' post='2841744']
I very much doubt that a large proportion of the audience know or even care how the music is produced. If they did, they wouldn't be there, they'd be watching bands.
[/quote]

I don't think people who go & see bands are that bothered about how the music is produced either to be honest, unless they also happen to be musicians themselves. All people want to do is go out & get wasted with their mates.

If people were that bothered about the music they wouldn't spend half the gig they've spent £50 to see buying overpriced beer at the bar & the other half talking to their friends & checking their f***ing phones.

[TimR]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1439306992' post='2841747']


I don't think people who go & see bands are that bothered about how the music is produced either to be honest, unless they also happen to be musicians themselves. All people want to do is go out & get wasted with their mates.

If people were that bothered about the music they wouldn't spend half the gig they've spent £50 to see buying overpriced beer at the bar & the other half talking to their friends & checking their f***ing phones.
[/quote]

That wasn't really my point.

If people are interested in rock music, they go to watch rock bands.
If people are interested in dance music, they go watch dance music being played.
There is some crossover of course, but I don't think anyone going to watch dance music is expecting it to be anything other than what it is.
Conversely, if you went to see Madonna and she mimed the set, that's not what you were expecting and probably not what you paid for. Some artists have tried it and come largely unstuck when the fans have complained.

Edited August 11, 2015 by TimR

[Bilbo]

What does that prove?The inference is that, because they can sing and play their own tunes on acoustic instruments, it validates the playing of a recording of themselves in a 'live' setting. I don't accept that it does.

But, then again, i am being a git.

[TimR]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1439307673' post='2841759']
What does that prove?The inference is that, because they can sing and play their own tunes on acoustic instruments, it validates the playing of a recording of themselves in a 'live' setting. I don't accept that it does.

But, then again, i am being a git.
[/quote]

People go to cinemas to watch recordings of people perform acting.

Edited August 11, 2015 by TimR