Bang for buck?

[Delius]

I've had cause to wonder before about the rather large delta in pricing on quality basses, particularly second-hand, and whether there is really any tangible difference in quality as you ramp up in price - or if it's just a case of "whatever the market will bear" against a particular manufacturer or model.

So, case in point - I've been a G&L man for nearly 20 years, and I think they are fantastic basses that represent great value for £1k-£1.5k (that said, I've only ever played Fender or G&L so I don't exactly have a lot to compare with). Looking at the marketplace and seeing basses from other quality manufacturers for around £2.5-3k, I sort of wonder even as my finger hovers over the PM button, "is it really worth double the price?". And I'm talking in terms of absolutely quality, not a personal preference thing. Say I pay £10k for a piano instead of £5k. It's almost certainly going to be a better instrument in some easily-definable way. Can this be the case with basses? As they are much simpler instruments and I would expect there comes a point where a bass just can't get any easier to play.

This is not an entirely academic question as I'm actively looking at procuring another bass! I get that buying something more expensive now probably means you can sell it for more money later, but given my general aversion to selling ANYTHING that's not really a factor here. Would be interested in people's thoughts.

[Grangur]

At the Herts Bass Bash 2014, Lozz did a blind test where about 18 P basses were played from behind a curtain. The audience of BCers voted for their favourite bass.

Somewhere here you can see the full results, but a Gear4Music LA bass (£89.99 RRP), came 4th.
USA Fenders were tested, but were further down the ranking.

So to answer your question; its all in the ears. price tags are no assurance of preference.

[discreet]

Ooh, can of worms!!

I'd say there are quite a few manufacturers (and independent luthiers) who have picked up the baton and run further with it than Fender and G&L (fine instruments though they be) so I'd say yes, there is a definable difference as you move towards the top end of the market.

Having said that I've been playing for decades and after a few GAS attacks and dead-ends, have come to the conclusion that my Fender does everything I want it to, and what's more, does everything I'm ever [i]likely [/i]to want it to... what I'm saying is that if I bought a £5000 bass it would probably be a waste of money, because my Fender is a better bass than I'll ever be. If that makes sense.

And having said [i]that[/i], I can quite understand why people would buy an expensive bass... they are worth whatever people are prepared to pay for them, whether as a work of art or an investment, in the case of vintage instruments. But as a player, I like players' basses.

Edit: And having said all [i]that[/i]... if I could easily afford a £5K bass I'd probably buy a couple or three, just for the hell of it and because I could. There you go, consumer capitalism feeds itself. Stamp out bourgeois revisionism!!

Edited August 10, 2015 by discreet

[discreet]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1439206421' post='2840766']
...its all in the ears. price tags are no assurance of preference.
[/quote]

True, but it's all in the fingers, too - by which I mean in this case that it's about playability and aesthetics as well as sound. And if I remember rightly (as I wasn't there), there were no high-end £5K-type basses in that test? Or were there?

[Grangur]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1439206653' post='2840771']
True, but it's all in the fingers, too - by which I mean in this case that it's about playability and aesthetics as well as sound. And if I remember rightly (as I wasn't there), there were no high-end £5K-type basses in that test? Or were there?
[/quote]

There was a £10k bass. That came about 12th if memory serves. Lozz will be a long later I'm sure. He'll know more.

My Warwick Streamer SS1 turned to the P pup came well down the list too; It all depends on what you're looking for, or expecting.
It has to be said, the audience was about 20 folk. So not a massive profile really.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Grangur

[discreet]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1439206893' post='2840778']
There was a £10k bass. That came about 12th if memory serves.
[/quote]

Ooh, I wonder what that was. Sounds lush. Or not, as it turned out.

[Delius]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1439207276' post='2840784']
Ooh, I wonder what that was. Sounds lush. Or not, as it turned out.
[/quote]
Found the results of that one:
[url="https://bassclef141.wordpress.com/2014/07/10/herts-bass-bash-2014/pbass-table_different-size/#main"]https://bassclef141.wordpress.com/2014/07/10/herts-bass-bash-2014/pbass-table_different-size/#main[/url]

[CamdenRob]

The law of diminishing returns applies to basses as it does pretty much everything else...

IMO a new Fender P or J, or a Stingray is pretty much the "benchmark bass" against which others are judged. Costs around a grand, comes with a hardcase and would last you a life time of playing, recording and touring in your chosen genre. Anything beyond that is going to cost you a lot of money for relatively minor improvements. But that's not to say these "improvements" aren't worth it if thats how you feel about them.

I love Wal basses, I love the way they are made, the look, the playability and most importantly the sound. To me they are worth the premium over a new "benchmark bass", for others they will not be. Having visited the workshop I can also see where the money goes... They are making a profit obviously (they are entitled to they are a business) but everything is made in house by two blokes. Everything from the individual chrome plating of bridge saddles, to winding a pair of individual pickup coils per string in each pick up, to hand sanding ./ color finishing etc. The man hours that go into each instrument takes up a huge chunk of the cost. Handmaking every individual component of a bass guitar is an expensive business if you are not prepared to compromise anywhere on quality.

it is relative though... When I picked up my Ziricote Wal I also had a HB deko PJ 4 string arrive on the same day. One of those basses cost 300 times the price of the other... Now it is obviously a superior instrument in every way but is it 300 times better?... I don't think so.

Edited August 10, 2015 by CamdenRob

[LayDownThaFunk]

[quote name='Delius' timestamp='1439205641' post='2840754']I've been a G&L man for nearly 20 years, and I think they are fantastic basses that represent great value for £1k-£1.5k (that said, I've only ever played Fender or G&L so I don't exactly have a lot to compare with).[/quote]
Please play some other basses.

[Grangur]

[quote name='Delius' timestamp='1439207933' post='2840799']
Found the results of that one:
[url="https://bassclef141.wordpress.com/2014/07/10/herts-bass-bash-2014/pbass-table_different-size/#main"]https://bassclef141....rent-size/#main[/url]
[/quote]

Hey! Well done!.

So the price matter looks more down to age than pedigree... Interesting info though. Also it shows MIM is better than MIA, in the ears of the audience, on the day.

[Delius]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1439208848' post='2840811']
Please play some other basses.
[/quote]
Ha! I'm sure I will at some point. I play lots of different instruments though so don't have time or space for more than a couple of bass guitars and I'm not really into getting rid of quality kit.

[Muzz]

I don't think the piano analogy holds up, I'm sure there are many examples on Pianochat or its equivalent (tho I'm not willing to go and look ) of 'bang for buck' cheaper pianos...

It's very much an emotive sliding scale - I'm sure there's lots of people who think US Fenders and G&Ls aren't bang for buck - they'll champion Roadworns or Tributes, etc. I've got a P-copy I paid £60 for new, which is pretty close to a US P (and I've had a few of them) [i]for my intents and purposes.[/i] Is a US P ten, twenty times better? Not for me, but definitely for someone else.

I have a luthier-made bass which is exactly what I wanted, built to my exact spec and with fantastic attention to detail and quality, which cost me the same as a certain US factory-built bass. Is it better? It is to me, massively, but I know chaps on here who are fans of the other manufacturer who wouldn't hesitate for a second to make the other choice. Which is cool, and says more about us than it does about the basses.

An opposite example - I had a 78 Jazz once, a horrible thing to play, sounded...brown...weighed a ton (and I'm talking nearly 12lbs here) but it was in astonishing nick, had the original case, etc, etc, and it sold for an amount that made my eyebrows shoot up. I'm sure whoever bought it thinks it's worth the money; myself, I couldn't be bothered even playing it...

It's all down to what you'd consider 'worth double the price' to be? If you can define that, we can answer more accurately.

[chris_b]

If you think, "Is it worth it?", then to you, it isn't.

I have 3 used 5 string basses. The cheapest one was nearly half the price of the other 2. It's a good bass and a good buy but the other 2 are miles better in every respect.

If you can't tell there is a difference between price points or that difference doesn't matter to you then the more expensive gear is not worth it.

If that difference is important to you, and in my case it certainly is, then the gear is worth every penny.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1439210107' post='2840827']
So the price matter looks more down to age than pedigree... Interesting info though. Also it shows MIM is better than MIA, in the ears of the audience, on the day.
[/quote]

I thought it showed that the single most worthwhile improvement you can make to a P-bass is to put in a Seymour Duncan quarter-pounder. That would raise the total cost of the Gear4music one to about £135.

[Iain]

Best value bass I've ever owned was a trans red Musicman Sterling (Us not the sub version). £800 second hand, regret selling it.

[Kiwi]

Used Spector NSCR's are outstanding value, as are Korean made Toby Pro's. Both far from Fender in design though.

[Grangur]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1439295972' post='2841602']
I thought it showed that the single most worthwhile improvement you can make to a P-bass is to put in a Seymour Duncan quarter-pounder. That would raise the total cost of the Gear4music one to about £135.
[/quote]

That G4M had a standard pup. I never bothered changing the pup at all, ever.

[uncle psychosis]

Its all diminishing returns, isn't it?

Lets face it, with 60-odd years of manufacturing know-how, in 2015 its almost impossible to buy a really bad bass guitar anymore. Certainly, once you get over £300 (£200?) almost everything will be decently made, sound good, stay in tune, and be completely giggable. Bass guitars that cost ten times that price will (or should) be exceedingly well made, sound great, stay in tune, and be completely giggable. The difference is In the details---the aesthetic, the feel, the nuance of the sound, etc.

For me, I've never found a bass that would justify spending more than £1k on it. Its a personal decision. Do the differences in the details matter to you more than the price differential?